Circle Maker…Circling?
IS IT BIBLICAL?
Look, all you who kindle a fire,
Who encircle yourselves with sparks:
Walk in the light of your fire and in the sparks you have kindled—
This you shall have from My hand:
You shall lie down in torment. Isaiah 50:11
“Circling with prayer” is one of the terms I heard early on concerning what Mark 
Batterson said he did for his church and I was instantly disturbed. Why would a pastor, a church, an author, want to use this occult term and write a book with the title, “The Circle Maker”? Even in my limited knowledge of the occult, in my younger days I knew a ‘white witch’. She described the ‘circling‘ they did for energy and power, in order to invoke the ‘good spirits’ and yet they had a pentagram within the circle…
Circling or the ‘casting’ or ‘marking (drawing of circles) are used in the occult, magical and satanic practices; for evoking power, conjuring money, any big dreams, by manipulating the gods, spirits, demons….
I can see why people such as Joni Earackson Tada have fallen for this occult practice seeing as she embraces the New-Age Occult “Message” bible…(not a Bible)
So they commissioned them. In that CIRCLE of intensity and obedience, of fasting and praying, they laid hands on their heads and sent them off. THE MESS-AGE – MESSAGE (It is a MESS and it is New AGE) NOTICE ANY ADDITIONS?
CONTRAST THE KJV: And when they had fasted and prayed, and laid their hands on them, they sent them away. Acts 13:3
The One with Seven Stars in his right-fist grip, striding through the golden seven-lights’ CIRCLE. Rev 2:2 – the Mess-Age
No time to waste, for I’m well on my way to removing your light from the golden CIRCLE. Rev 2:5 – the Message
Look it up. Look up circle in the New Testament in the KJV = ZERO times. (No, I am not KJVO)
I thought this would be an easy post since my friend Judy wrote this, a simple copy and paste. A little formatting and I’m done. Trouble is, she also gave me a link to “Revive our Hearts” and the “True Women” conference. Troubling…
The True Women Conference was held in Indianapolis 2012 by “Revive our Hearts”, Nancy Leigh DeMoss. Link
List of speakers/singers/etc. at the True Woman Conference doing the circle making: Nancy Leigh DeMoss, Janet Parshall, Priscilla Shirer, Joni Eareckson Tada, Singer Kristyn Getty, Juli Slattery, Pastor Bill and Holly Eliff, , Dannah Gresh, Mary Kassian, Leslie Bennett, Leslie Basham, Bob Lepine.
Mark Batterson is the author of many best selling books, “The Circle Maker: Praying Circles Around Your Biggest Dreams and Greatest Fears”, “All In: You Are One Decision Away From a Totally Different Life”, “Draw the Circle: The 40 Day Prayer Challenge”. Lead Pastor at National Community church, aka “The Theater Church” in Washington, D.C.., He has six locations; Lincoln Theatre, Kingstowne, Potomac, Ballston, Georgetown, Barracks and evidently quite a following. They even have a ‘student’ edition of the book. All I can think of is Eugene Peterson’s Mess–age incants,
“As above, so below”…
The Circle Maker
By Judy Rominger
I have been reading a ‘Bible’ study on prayer – I use the term ‘Bible’ loosely because really the author based the heart and whole premise of his book on a legend — The Legend of Honi, to be precise. The author is teaching a prayer technique found nowhere in Scripture and introduces doctrine found nowhere in Scripture, but he uses and twists a whole lot of Scripture to try and support this legend he so very much loves.
It boils down to this…he’s teaching new way to pray to get BIG things out of God and introducing new doctrine based on a legend, and ‘Christians’ are buying it.
Seriously. I’m not joking. They are buying the lie that the author claims that God only honors bold prayers – that small prayers insult Him. That’s right. That’s what the author claims.
He says “we must all draw circles around our prayers like the fabled Jewish man Honi,…even draw chalk circles to sit and pray in”.
He says “The earth has circled the sun more than two thousand times since the day Honi drew his circle in the sand, but God is still looking for circle makers. And the timeless truth secreted within this ancient legend is as true now as it was then.” (He’s right about it being an ancient legend. The Gnostics & pagans practiced it, but it was condemned as a heresy by the Second Council of Nicaea in 787 A.D. Amazing the resurgence of gnostic practices these last days, right? )
The Pastor/Author continues… “bold prayers honor God and God honors bold prayers. God isn’t offended by your biggest dreams or boldest prayers. He is offended by anything less.”
Where in Scripture does God say that He is offended by ‘non-bold’ prayers?
Let’s look at what we have here. We have a brand new prayer exercise being taught by a man and brand new doctrine – small prayers offend God!
Then he reiterates his claim . . . “If your prayers aren’t impossible to you, they are insulting to God.”
Wow. Where does the Lord say that in Scripture?
Does that mean when I’ve told one of my children to pray and ask God to help them study & do well on a college exam, that I should have told them instead to pray and ask God to give them an A+ 100% on a test I know is next to impossible for them to ace? Hmmm…. Does the minutia – the little details I share with the Lord happening in my life that I need His help with really insult him? Really? And another thing – don’t all good things come from God? The small and great?
But Jesus taught us to pray ….
“Our Father, which art in heaven,
Hallowed be thy Name.
Thy Kingdom come.
Thy will be done in earth,
As it is in heaven.
Give us this day our daily bread….”
Think about that last line…our daily bread. Praying for my “daily bread”… Hmm, my daily sustenance – spiritual & physical – the everyday minutia.
Did Jesus get it wrong?
(Judy’s comments in parentheses within the indented comments by the authors, otherwise, her comments will follow.)
Then the author claims… “There is nothing God loves more than keeping promises (truth), answering prayers (truth), performing miracles (truth), and fulfilling dreams (All our dreams? Or only ones that fit within His will?).”
Then he continued “That is who He is. That is what He does. And the bigger the circle we draw (what?), the better, because God gets more glory.”
Wow. Draw circles? Draw big circles to bring Him more glory? How big should my circle be? And what color should I draw it in?
In Psalm 37, we are told “Trust in the Lord and do good; dwell in the land & enjoy safe pasture. Delight yourself in the Lord and He will give you the desires of your heart. Commit your way to the Lord, trust in Him and He will do this.” There is a priority given in these words; Trust Him and do good, & your first delight must be in the Lord, Himself – not what you want from Him. Are you really committed to Him having His way, trusting & delighting in Him even if His answer might be ‘no?’ Sometimes it’s not easy to trust and obey, because God might have different plans.
Yet the author of this book on prayer continues unequivocally to proclaim:
“I promise you this: God is ready and waiting. So while I have no idea what circumstances you find yourself in, I’m confident that you are only one prayer away from a DREAM FULFILLED, a promise kept or a miracle performed.”
Yes, we serve a miracle working God and yes, He keeps His promises, but He has a plan for each of our lives & that might not fulfill our current dreams or expectations. – For one thing His plan could exceed them, or turn them upside down, because He is after all King of Kings & Lord of Lords. So how do we glorify God with false doctrine, drawing circles (which isn’t found in Scripture), and treating Him like He is Santa Claus? Where is the Scripture that tells me to feed my narcissism? I cannot reconcile the teachings in this book with the Word the Lord spoke to His disciples, ” If any of you wants to be My follower, you must turn from your selfish ways, take up your cross, and follow Me (Matt. 16:24).”
Rather than feeding on the meat of God’s Word, people are feeding on stink weeds. What are the shepherds thinking who use these materials? What is wrong with just using God’s Word as our source and not adding to it or taking away from it?
Start with Amazon.com and read the description….
“According to Pastor Mark Batterson in his book, The Circle Maker, ‘Drawing prayer circles around our dreams isn’t just a mechanism whereby we accomplish great things for God. It’s a mechanism whereby God accomplishes great things in us.’ Do you ever sense that there’s far more to prayer, and to God’s vision for your life, than what you’re experiencing? It’s time you learned from the legend of Honi the Circle Maker—a man bold enough to draw a circle in the sand and not budge from inside it until God answered his prayers for his people. What impossibly big dream is God calling you to draw a prayer circle around? Sharing inspiring stories from his own experiences as a circle maker, Mark Batterson will help you uncover your heart’s deepest desires and God-given dreams and unleash them through the kind of audacious prayer that God delights to answer.”
The author described how when “the last of the Jewish prophets had died off, there was one man, an eccentric sage who lived outside the wall of Jerusalem.”
He’s speaking of the time frame biblical scholars and theologians have long referred to as the period where God was silent. Yo — all the prophets are dead, but there’s HONI! There’s your sign…The author is good about giving this ‘eccentric sage’ a sweet and biblical sounding covering as he teaches about good ole Honi and his Honi practice.
He even anticipates some will criticize him as an advocate of “name it, claim it” theology, but insists it is not. I think he doth protest too much, because it is hardly distinguishable from it. But that doesn’t preclude him one bit from very often taking Scripture far beyond its context and making promises the Bible does not actually make.
Can you see any difference in his magic circles than the one here, found in the book The Magic Circle (a book of ritual occultism that I used to have)?
“There is no aspect of ritual occultism more ancient or more essential than the magic circle. Indeed, it is difficult to find systems of magic that do not use the circle in some form, and when they are found, they seem incomplete and naked. The magic circle is older than Solomon, older than Moses, and occurs throughout the world in all religions and systems of witchcraft and thaumaturgy. It divides, excludes, protects, attracts, focuses, and concentrates, as these functions are needed by the magician. It is used not merely for evocations, but for invocations, for charging of talismans, for scrying, for projecting accumulated occult energy, and even for meditation. A correct understanding of the circle, not only how to project it, but what it signifies symbolically, is the most basic knowledge any magician can possess, and no magician can be said to know anything of importance about magic who has not mastered the use of the circle.” -The Magic Circle by Donald Tyson
THE BIBLE TELLS US
Deuteronomy 18:10-12 ~ “There shall not be found among you anyone who makes his son or his daughter pass through the fire, or one, who practices witchcraft, or a soothsayer, or one who interprets omens, or a sorcerer, or one who conjures spells, or a medium, or a spiritist, or one who calls up the dead. For all who do these things are an abomination to the Lord, and because of these abominations the Lord your God drives them out from before you.”
I Thessalonians 5:21-22 “Prove ALL THINGS; hold fast that which is good. Abstain from all appearance of evil.”
I really don’t see any difference in this — telling people to draw circles to enhance their prayers than telling folks they’ve got to worship God by handling snakes.
At least there is a scripture that references handling snakes where there is none for drawing circles, but most would understand that God isn’t telling us all to go handle snakes. (I hope.) In this Scripture, found in the Gospel of Mark (16:18), Jesus tells His followers “And these signs will accompany those who believe; in my name they will cast out demons; they will speak in new tongues; they will pick up serpents, and they will drink any deadly thing, it will not hurt them; they will lay hands on the sick, and they will recover.”
Is this a commandment Jesus is telling us all to follow? No! That doesn’t mean that God so loved the world, He said let’s go out and handle some snakes and drink poison!
He’s not saying this as an imperative or command for His people to follow, but an indication that some amazing signs will accompany those who follow Him. Those words Christ spoke certainly foretold the experience Paul had on the Island of Malta, however, he didn’t go out looking for a poisonous snake to hold. He was bitten unexpectedly and in front of witnesses who were stunned to realize His God indeed protected him as He promised. Again, in the context of all that is written there, God is explaining He has charge over us and can protect us from many things we may face in serving Him. He’s definitely not saying we are to deliberately hurt ourselves so as to test him to see if He will come through for us.
But if you follow the advice given in Mr. Batterson’s book – it sure sounds like one of the big things (impossible for you) – that God would be pleased with, doesn’t it?
Where else is this circle drawing for prayers found? Besides the mystical traditions of some Jewish legends and Gnosticism, it is found deep within the historical record of those who practice witchcraft as I’ve illustrated above. So look up ‘drawing circles,’ etc.. You will find an abundance of pagan web sites that teach the same.
Holly, thank you for this timely review. I am having an issue with a ss teacher who has elected to “teach” this book and have sent many links.
I have a question however. The other night in our small group Bible study, the facilitator wanted us to pray for one of our couples and wanted to form a circle and to hold hands with them in the middle. Would this be liken to the circle maker? We used to do that and didn’t think anything about it but now I am wondering. Would love to hear your thoughts.
Ps, have taken a break from Facebook and do miss you but not fb. Love you friend
You know as long as they are not ascribing any certain power or special significance, I wouldn’t be too concerned, but when things start becoming ritualistic, then I have an issue when I can find no Biblical basis. I wondered why I hadn’t seen you around but i haven’t been as frequent either. Love you and praying all is well. In Christ’s love…
Btw, as far as”teaching these Jewish fables… everyone should flee…
Thank you friend. Love you
I was looking on my phone last night when I answered, tiny print… Not sure why these times are of, but it’s obviously in another country looking at the time submissions. Anyways, I would have a question. What does a ‘facilitator’ do? What is the purpose? Talk to you soon!
Hello hollysgarcia, thank-you for this article and explaining the many leavens being lumped into the Body of Christ. I had concerns when I heard a well known Pentecostal pastor preach about the different ways to pray in order for you to be heard by God. I immediately was uncomfortable with the leading into “works” for God to hear or answer our prayers. God searches our hearts and knows our needs before we do, although we are still to trust and believe in all HIS promises and blessings HE bestows on HIS children. Our victory is in what our LORD and SAVIOR did for us over 2000 years ago and our prayers are to be with thanksgiving and praise, not ritualistic and formulated rhetoric. I pray God keep my eyes and ears open to HIS leading and not be deceived by those that are deceived and then deceive others. I have 5 grandchildren that watch TV here at my house, and I am seeing and noticing more demonic, dark and supernatural “children’s shows.” For example: Spongebob Squarepants was showing how to give a seance to conjure up the dead. My 12 year old grandson brought that to my attention and knew it was NOT right to view. This seemingly innocent show is teaching how to break through the spiritual realm and invite spirits through. Just look at the movies out there that entice young into witchcraft or the supernatural: Harry Potter, Lord of the Rings, Twilight, Zombie movies, it’s all gotten so dark for our young and teenagers. I have read Deuteronomy 18:9-14 and other passages concerning the “white magics” and told the grands that God does not deny their existence, HE just tells us not to mess with them for our own good. Anything that takes our focus off of the power of the Cross of Calvary distracts us to hearing our Shepherd and being led by the HOLY SPIRIT. Thank-you LORD for your Mercies that are new every morning by the breath YOU give me to start another day for YOU. Have a nice night Hollysgarcia.:)
Gail, it is indeed getting dark out there, and what seems innocuous is being embraced by many from Pentecostals to supposedly mainstream Christianity. It makes me think of this verse.
For there must also be factions among you, that those who are approved may be recognized among you. 1 Cor 11:19
We know Satan is always on the prowl, and from the beginning, he set about to attack God and His Word…
God bless you as you are ever vigilant, teaching your grandchildren the truth and getting them in the meat of His Word so they will be able to discern between good and evil (as I see they already are) Heb 5:12-14
Very good… this is what our NAR church had just started getting into when we left.. and add that to FoF The Truth Project with the “spheres” that I unwittingly helped lead… ugh
Debbie Smith
Jesus answered, “My kingdom is not of this world. If My kingdom were of this world, then My servants would be fighting so that I would not be handed over to the Jews; but as it is, My kingdom is not of this realm.” John 18:36
Debbie – we all have made these mistakes, it’s part of our story, but thank the Lord He is leading us out of error, and we can warn others.
Just curious. Do you believe that God creates evil?
Thank you godsfinger for commenting, here are my thoughts.
I know many Calvinists will use the verse from Isaiah 45:7, along with a couple others to imply this means from out of God He has created evil.
Usually they will cite the KJV on that one (when other times they will not). In the Greek, the word ra is not translated well in the KJV in that verse, for we know God does not sin. The same word is also translated wicked, wickedness etc. God is neither. We also see the same word translated mischief, trouble, affliction, adversity, harm, noisome and some say calamity.
I believe these are better choices since Scripture says God is Holy and there is no wickedness or sin in Him. We know Scripture does not contradict itself.
Strong’s H7451b (the form used in Isaiah 45:7), the majority of the time refers to calamity or distress.
Strong’s H7451a refers to moral evil most often. (You can find a more complete explanation in a few places)
God is Holy, Holy, Holy…(Is 6:3; Rev 4:8) He is without sin. Nor does He tempt man to sin (James 1:13).
I hope that helps your understanding.
In Jesus Christ.
Hi Holly, thanks for the reply. Actually, that’s my challenge to the AKJV only folk, the “faithfully preserved word of God”. The Hebrew has no moral equivalent to evil or wickedness in this sense. The Hebrew refers to catastrophe which is the sense that the NIV uses ( I use an old 1984 NIV from when it was useful). Also in Revelation the contextual Greek uses thronos for both Jesus and the elders, yet the AKJV insists on elevating Jesus to a throne and the elders on seats. I try to steer clear of Strong’s concordance because of the Calvinist doctrine laced throughout, I prefer the Young’s concordance when looking for reference. Online I’ll use the blueletterbible interlinear so that I can easily see the word in context. That’s the truble when you have oe word doctrines as opposed to context. Enough of that.
In regard to the above, I have trouble with your counterparts at solasisters and stand up for the truth because of the strong Calvinist leanings. When I start to see an equal calling out of Calvinists I might start giving more credence. As in the above, there is so much projecting into what Mark Batterson is saying it hides the truth. A corollary would be steeples on churches. They are Masonic symbols incorporated by Masons. I get a lot of flack for saying that but I use the SBC as a case in point because it is teaming with Freemasons. So much so that repeated attempts to pass a resolution decrying Freemasonry have failed. Even John MacArthur (despite his so called denouncement). I’m waiting to see these sites publish the truth about Calvinist leanings.
Read Mark Batterson’s book “All In” and tell me where is the occult, emerging, new age in it. Really, it’s a condemnation and calling out of the Laodecian church.
Hello, thank you again. I have studied the issues/differences with AKJV, NKJV, NASB, ESV for awhile. I was raised with KJV although that was basically what most churches used. Which concordance do you prefer if you don’t use strongs. Sola sisters would not be my counterparts, they stand for reformed, I stand against the doctrine.
Not ‘quite’ sure what you mean here, because I didn’t mention Mark Batterson. //As in the above, there is so much projecting into what Mark Batterson is saying it hides the truth. A corollary would be steeples on churches. They are Masonic symbols incorporated by Masons. I get a lot of flack for saying that but I use the SBC as a case in point because it is teaming with Freemasons. So much so that repeated attempts to pass a resolution decrying Freemasonry have failed. //
As freemasonry, all things will be made known one day, and so we should always denounce the hidden, secret works of darkness, that should be easy. That just doesn’t happen to be my forte’ so I stick with the things I believe the Lord has led me to do.
In Christ eternally, have a good rest of the week.
Godsfinger, I apologize, didn’t realize we were on this post when I asked about the Batterson comment. I have to tell you I’d have no interest in reading a Batterson book. Once someone’s doctrine has proven to be bad, I stay away from them (Rom 16:17-18).
Again, thank you for visiting.
Hi Holly,
I had to many tabs open at the same time and sola sisters was next to this 🙁
I use the Young’s Analytical Concordance ( same one for 40 years, pretty well worn 😉 I used the KJV but moved to the NIV1984 just for clarity. Then came the KJVO folks and I came to find out how much “one word” false doctrine there is, whew.
I’ve only read the book All In so maybe that’s why I come from a different position, I haven’t read circle maker, just other folks writing about it so I don’t know about a prosperity direction. I guess he would have been safer to have stuck to a square instead of an ellipse ( technically a circle is a 360 degree arc of constant radius, the sun doesn’t do a circle, good thing 😉
I just have a tough time in the analysis when he’s advocating the parable of the woman and the judge, we need to be persistent to a fault, praying in his will. But if there is more to what he is saying I don’t know and I apologize. I was curious about the reference to the Second Council of Nicaea in 787. I thought that dealt with Irene and the Iconoclast.
I didn’t mean to cause any trouble, I’ll have to ask my wife, she read the make circles around your children thingy.
God Bless,
Dan
Hi Dan, don’t apologize, looks like I was confused too, because on wordpress when you go to the comment section, it will show one article to the right for one comment, then all of the sudden another comment right after, and my mind assumed I was on that page, so I think I was a little confused. I like Young’s also, thanks for sharing. When I started studying the different translations, wanting to know what issues to look for, I sure didn’t know much about the KJVO crowd. I am KJV preferred, although I do not stick to it solely, and like studying the root words and their etymology since we have the availability.
You didn’t cause any trouble at all, I haven’t followed Batterson much at all, not sure if I even heard of him before this fiasco of a book. But, praying your wife might consider what potential errors and dangers there may be in that kind of teaching, that she just might consider where or if she thinks this might line up with His Word.
God bless you and your entire family. Psalm 119:140, 162 Luke 10:38-42
Thank you for posting this Holly! Seems so many are pushing prayer in a way that is not biblical. Just the other week someone was telling me of how their pastor had been teaching them on healing prayer. It must (the prayer) be spoken authoritatively, powerfully, boldly….. Another friend said if you have to say certain words, at specific places, in specific ways, it’s called “magic” a light went off in my brain! Yes magic indeed it is……
Christians be careful of what is taught and presented to you, by your pastors, anybody for that matter……
Judy, so true, and yet so many seemingly conservative and well-known ‘evangelicals’ are promoting this. We need to truly take to heart, the exhortations in His Word:
These were more noble than those in Thessalonica, in that they received the word with all readiness of mind, and searched the scriptures daily, whether those things were so. Acts 17:11
Prove all things; hold fast that which is good. 1 Thess 5:21
Hmmm, why would Joni support this? So much for Holiness in Hidden Places. So much for overcoming prosperity preachers and Job’s comforters, and glorifying God from a wheelchair. What does Loadship do? How does promoting Jewish fables and using terminology related to the occult (if not meaning anything harmful by it) and endorsing an utterly new age bible demonstrate a godly response to suffering? Richard Wurmbrand’s bad example also comes to mind. I thought Joni’s suffering was an example of trusting and obeying when God says no. So why this drawing bold circles around self?
Jason, it’s amazing the occult-like practices many are encompassing in the church. Think on the Mess-AGE, the new age ‘bible in contemporary language’ which is not even close to original wording, nor is it in ‘contemporary language’, but it is very sexual, occult-like, inappropriate, new-age, and flat out a lie. It horribly distorts the Word of God, even turning the Lord’s prayer into an occult chant that is used by the New Age and Satanist groups alike. Why change ‘On earth as it is in Heaven’ to ‘as above, so below’? Do we not understand the words heaven and earth? So they would rather believe a lie…
I absolutely agree that this is neither contemporary nor accurate. I had a few bad listens myself on youtube postings of this train wreck, in order to see for myself. Some people defend this by saying it is not their primary bible version. But I am convinced that it shouldn’t be anywhere in their list of bible versions to read in parallel at all. Why do these people not reason that the NIV or NASB is contemporary enough already, and that all this multiplying of bible versions is not helping? Indeed, why did Zondervan go through with the planned obsolescence of the 1984 edition of the NIV?
What I find utterly incomprehensible is that Joni Tada, after fending off word of faith teachers and faith healing charlatans, would endorse this flat out new age perversion? Surely, as above so below, would not sit right with her.
Jason. Who knows why exactly with each individual? I know the Bible says there are several different reasons, I can only pray she is undiscerning because of Heb 5:12-14. And that the Lord might send someone to show her. Or that she might actually prove all things (1 Thess 5:21). They forgot the second part of that which is to hold fast to that which is good. or ‘that good’. Anyways, if one knows the Word then reads this awful false book the alarms should go off as most passages are clearly unrecognizable. Just look up one you know well, like John 3:16.
Another thing I noticed is that Peterson evidently thinks that a style that throws in a rhetorical question every six sentences is somehow contemporary. Actually, there are plenty of modern works of literature that do not do this. Harry Potter (shock!) for one does not ask a barrage of rhetorical questions but is written at a tenth grade level. If that is contemporary style, you would expect twenty-first century books of worldly fantasy literature that is marketed at teens to do exactly that. But nothing I can think of, news articles, physics textbooks, or entertainment does that. It doesn’t sound contemporary, it just sounds dumb and insulting to the reader’s intelligence. It cheapens the text.
I think it is most certainly a work of the enemy because I know many intelligent people (in worldly terms) that have used this Bible and even endorsed it. So I believe minds are blinded or darkened by reading this. Years ago I bought this for my husband, not having done one lick of research other than some big pastors endorsed it (think it was 2000). I bought a nice leather version and though it would be easier for him based on his dyslexia. I was disappointed that it stayed in the bottom drawer so one day I finally took it out to read, turned to a familiar passage and was horrified. I turned to another and gasped and started writing down comparisons, it was shocking. But this is just one of the ways Satan uses, and has used from the beginning, did God REALLY say that?
It sounds like your husband saw that it was garbage and disregarded it.
You are absolutely right that nothing is recognizable. John 3:16 is rendered repetitive and choppy, while a good version leaves sentences combined as they were in the original. John 3:16 has the same structure in the KJV, Lutherbibel, Vulgate, and TR: main clause, result clause, purpose clause.
One thing I noticed is that the armor of God is taken out of Ephesians. See how that is exactly what Satan would want us to do.
In the audio version, Paul sounds like an unstable person with issues. Mesmerizing music is added. Not the voice I want to hear.
I emailed some facts about it to my mom and she thought, “deplorable”.
Jason, yes, when I asked him later, he said he just couldn’t stand it. He didn’t want to hurt my feelings. I had never so much as cracked it or done any research in advance. They use words like light-seed, we need ‘light-seed’ instead of light? I have saved examples for years, there was enough write ups on it that I thought people would know, but millions have been handed out to High school and college groups. It’s a shame, the enemy is replacing the Word of God in so many ways that people don’t know they don’t have it.
It makes me wonder about the strong delusion. We are already getting clues. People show that they are ready for it. Some of the things people fall for don’t even require God’s help to discern: idiocy such as transgender. One does not need to be born from above to know what biology tells us about how many genders there are and the fact that we are born with them and should be content. But they prefer to believe they are born with an orientation. But Lordship is real subtle and the brightest minds fall for it.
The Mess has both the blatant and subtle elements. Anyone who has read the Bible even superficially from a poor translation knows the Bible does not read like a haranguing rant from cover to cover. Even in the Living Bible, the lines of demarcation among narrative, epistle, prophecy and parable are evident. The Mess mutilates the genre.
Satan doesn’t delineate, he is blinding minds everywhere in every course of life. The Living Bible preaches another gospel (turn from sin) and in so doing has added to His Word. The Mess-age does the same. They need marked and avoided, but too many in the ‘church’ (bldg.) are willingly turning a blind eye and compromising vs. standing for the truth.
When I was reading these versions, repent of sin did not bother me, and I was still confused. It is still too easy to forget these instances that have been pointed out to me.
The Living Bible was something my mom and I once used for devotions. How clueless we were.
Issues like this James White will never touch when he debates KJV Only. It seems that KJV Only is a convenient strawman to attack, and KJV Preference is the real thing.
It seems to be a knee-jerk reaction among evangelicals that those who have suffered for or in Christ have meat to feed us. Tada was a frequent guest on the now Tradition Answer Man show, where she hulked her book Holiness in Hidden Places. Maybe she too has fallen into the Lordship trap. Or maybe she became too popular for her own good. Even in a wheelchair it is possible to get rich off of books. Joni’s autobiographical movie was out when I was a kid and my parents went to see it, but my retardedly developed mind was not yet able to absorb the import. My mom explained all about the diving accident and how it destroyed nerve endings.
Another thought to redeem some of the time spent on entertainment has occured. I read the Wizard of Oz as a boy and noticed much later that it is over 100 years old. Yet there were no language issues of obsolescence and archaisms. I was curious enough to read the sequel and developed an obsession for fantasy of a similar kind. I had to look up or deduce a few words like “dainty” and “humbug”, which is normal. It was written at a much lower grade level than the popular fantasy of today. If something from 1900 can seem contemporary enough for a ten year old raised in the 80’s, I can’t see how a bible version dated 1984 needs vast improvement on the fourth centennial of the King James, much less why a radically new perversion with choppy sentences is in high demand.
Some caricatures:
White witch: Idiot boy, haven’t you heard how bad the reputation of fauns is? Their mouth knows no limit. Oh, the creepy horror stories your brother and sisters will have heard, of stone statues and that spooky god-cat. Still hungry? Come along, fetch your siblings and see if I don’t fill your cravings for the saltwater taffy. But don’t make me angry, make sure they come.
Oz: Don’t you know that all favors are earned? That western witch is as bad as they come. You must kill her and bring me the broom. Then see how faithfully I will grant you the brain, heart, nerve, and home you four asked for.
Physics: see how weird stuff is? Sometimes it’s particles, sometimes it’s waves. How is that possible? Don’t ask me, ask Bohr, he’s the know-it-all. Why does the god-particle get so much hype? It’s a field thing, you wouldn’t understand. Why the obsession with strings? In order to study the godless notion called the Bang. See how the quantum and gravity don’t get along? We hope to set them right. Abysses are our profession, other worlds is our forte.
Liberal article: see how Obama is the One? See how they hate him? The tea party nazis, the ones who play the commie card. And what for? They want him to fail. We want him with his god-charisma to succeed. We believe in our god-ability to perform, it’s in our motto. See how marvelous that 7% out of work is? So much better than the 9% of before.
You see that nothing in the world sounds like the Mess, not even literature of the worst content. Even books on the occult don’t read like that. Even Circle itself probably reads prosaically. Only the Mess goes out of its way to make a travesty of both the Word and the English language. I couldn’t imitate it well enough myself, even with the disgusting hyphenated god-words thrown in. One would think it was channeled during centering prayer.
Actually Jason from the physics down to the liberal article sound quite a lot like it with the hyphenated words, and ‘we hope to set them right’, (set them right is another occult term). God-ability reminds me of the hyphenated terms in the Mess. There is a reason these things are so wildly popular, and it’s not because it is not like the world. It is like the world and it is of the enemy, and he has minds blinded from the glorious gospel.
My sister defends it with the usual lame excuses, and when I point out the flaws, she asks me if I’m a scholar. A ten year old can tell this is not a Bible. This is not rocket science.
“God particle” (not hyphenated) is the nickname of the Higgs boson. I always thought it was an awful name to call a science discovery. They worship particles, now.
The best we can do Jason is defend it with the Word, and ask them if it seems to line up. Here is how I dealt with my young teen about 10 years ago. He came home from church where his leader had a friend in ‘preaching’ from the Mess-age. I asked him what he learned (vs. speaking about it per se’). He wasn’t really sure, so the next thing was to ask him what book they read out of. He knew. So I went to the Mess-age and went through the verses, basically sentence by sentence after I read the whole thing. I asked him to put it in his own words, and he really couldn’t come up with any substance. I told him I was going to read another passage (and I did, but it was the same references, just not the occult words of Eugene Peterson). So I proceeded the same way, and he was able to clearly answer and get things out of it. He had a summation at the end. I asked him if he noticed any similarity in the two passages. He did not. I then told him it was the same passage, just different translation. I asked him what he thought. He said, “I would never use the Message because it does not say what the Bible does”.
My point is we do want to let them know gently and aptly through showing them (if they are willing), and let the Word speak to them. So here is a suggestion as an older woman. Show humility to her, be kind, and of course we are not scholars, but many ‘scholars’ are deceived by many things. Another suggestion is maybe don’t make comparisons like ‘a ten year old can tell this is not the Bible’, for this kind of thinking will make them resistant to ‘hearing’ and our goal should be to recover someone from error.
I asked people what they thought about the word gospel being changed to ‘the Message’ (the name of the book). I mentioned the word means Good news or good tidings, so why ‘the Message’. It is removed all but one or two instances, in which case I guess we can then understand ‘gospel’ if they call it ‘gospel workers’. Another thing I mention is how often Israel is removed (600 + times). If you look at Romans 11 alone, the violence done is clear. You are left asking who? What? Huh?
Maybe ask her if she knows who the green god is, or the god of green hope? Don’t bring up the Mess-age, just ask her if she’s ever heard of that god. The emerald tablets in occultism seems to have the answer for me. The emerald tablet has all the secrets of the universe according to ‘ancient wisdom’ (occult). Also, maybe ask her to google ‘light-seed’. Interesting even the first thing that comes back. This is all about the occult. These are no accidents. These are also terms in the Mess-Age. The god of green hope can be found in Romans 15.
Israel removed? No wonder the Calvinists love it. References to ‘Master’ must have MacArthur tickled. There’s something for everyone.
The removal of the armor of God must surely have the charismatics tiffed. But then again, people tend to find what they like and ignore the rest. It’s a smorgasbord of error.
Another difficulty I have is knowing how to bring up something again that I have quieted down about.
Just pray for opportunity, be prepared in His Word, it’s the best response anyhow.
All this talk about circles reminds me of a worldly Tori Amos song
…circles and circles again.
Update: I mentioned the hyphenated words of the Mess at dinner, and my sister thought that was weird. Then she wanted some examples, and I did not remember specifically.
Hi Jason, I don’t have access to my other computer and won’t for a week, so try this one ‘verse’ alone, it has 3 hyphenated words in one. Tell me if it even sounds vaguely alike.
Light-seeds are planted in the souls of God’s people, Joy-seeds are planted in good heart-soil.
Notice the difference here and the very interesting connotation of light being planted into our souls (identifying us as God’s people before this happened) and joy-seeds are planted in ‘good’ heart-soil (sounds like those who mess up the parables of the sower).
Light is sown for the righteous, and gladness for the upright in heart. KJV Ps 97_11
I started reading this book a long time ago… it did seem a little cultish, but if drawing a circle around something helps you pray about that situation, then why not? Joshua circled Jericho 7 times, and the city walls fell. I think it can just be a way to focus on what you are praying about that’s all. Funny thing is, when I was reading it, I was praying for something really hard at the time, and I “circled” it and walked around a certain lake where I live 7 times. Immediately after I walked around the lake like a felt the Lord was telling me to do, I got the exact answer that I was seeking from the Lord.
Brad, I guess the simple issue for me, is that we don’t see it in Scripture even though the example of Joshua, this was a command from God to do this, and it was accomplished because Joshua obeyed. I think we have to be cautious once we know what the issues are with certain teachings, specifically when those advocating it have a false gospel. We can do all sorts of things, but none of them(outside the instruction we see in His Word) will cause God to act differently as far as I understand. Spending time with Him in prayer, and looking into His Word for wisdom on how to pray, who to pray for, what to pray about, that’s where I’d rather get my advice. I’ve had some great experiences but I cant count on my experiences to ever trump His Word.
Holly, there was nothing wrong with my reply. You and the others tied to your blog have really become close minded and pretty much re-hash the same ol’ same ol’. You yourselves go round in “circles.” I don’t think it’s productive at all. You seem to focus on the bad in everything and find yourselves getting stimulated when you find the next “Loadship” preacher. Have you ever actually prayed for these preachers like I do everyday? I’m sure most of them have believed the gospel at one point in their lives. Chances are, they are just confused from other bad teaching that they have heard. I can almost guarantee you that at one point in their life even for a split second that they believed that Jesus paid for “All” their sin and rose again. Love the sinner and hate the sin Holly. I actually email a lot of these preachers in love, and I have had some positive responses. Maybe you should do the same? Also, you seem to think that nothing in a person’s life can be proof of their salvation other than the fact that they believed the Gospel. There can be many other factors. God obviously leads us as Christians to do certain things, and the scriptures say that He will lead us. That leading in and of itself proves that we are His. Granted, it doesn’t prove it to others, but it is in fact additional proof to ourselves and additional assurance other than just the Gospel. You seem to be stuck on this “just the gospel” thing, and it’s worse than drawing a circle around something and praying about it. It’s extremely dogmatic. In Christ, Brad
Brad, I have been under the weather, and I don’t always visit the blog, sometimes for a couple days at a time. This post of yours is accusatory and argumentative and I don’t want to permit any more, although that’s not what was going on (that I somehow hadn’t permitted your post, it was still sitting there).
To compare us contending earnestly for the faith once delievered with this occult-like practice of circling is not reasoning together with me using Scriptures. I don’t intend on doing my alms in public and answering what I do in prayer, in emails or in anything I do as unto the Lord. You assume people have not, so you judge with a faulty judgment.
I can see you are falling into the ‘proof of salvation’ based on behavior, and you are not using sound speech that cannot be condemned. (You say) I seem to be stuck on just the gospel ‘thing'”?
I wonder if carnal people of his day tol”d Paul the same thing? I prefer to imitate this pattern. Just an friendly FYI, I won’t accept any further argumentative posts from you with assumptions based on lack of knowledge. It’s foolish arguments that way lay others who are hearing. This is not the purpose for this site, and I know false accusations are not of Him.
1 And I, brethren, when I came to you, came not with excellency of speech or of wisdom, declaring unto you the testimony of God. 2 For I determined not to know any thing among you, save Jesus Christ, and him crucified. 3 And I was with you in weakness, and in fear, and in much trembling. 4 And my speech and my preaching was not with enticing words of man’s wisdom, but in demonstration of the Spirit and of power: 5 that your faith should not stand in the wisdom of men, but in the power of God.
I’ll continue to defend the gospel, contend earnestly for the faith once delivered. I’ll continue to preach Christ and Him crucified with His help.
In Jesus Christ eternally (as Jack used to say), Holly
Brad, in case there is any doubt on your part, all your other comments will remain unapproved. We are not here as administrators to receive personal insults as to what ‘spirits’ you misconstrue us to have or the condition of our heart. We are not here also to face someone who is wrongly blaming us for their comments disappearing. We are also not here to debate a matter based on your personal experiences and what you feel God is telling you, most especially when it doesn’t line up with the Word of God. This website is just to contrast error with the Word of God in a peaceable manner hopefully without vain imaginations running amuck. I particularly don’t appreciate the attack and judgment of another admin here, and will not tolerate it. I think we have given you enough chances from times past, so I think it’s probably time for you to move on, because I consider the additional things you said to be railing and foolish arguments.