Ray Comfort – what’s wrong with his gospel?
The Accursed Message of The “Way of the Master”
Isn’t that kind of strong? Harsh? My judgment is made on Ray’s doctrine alone — his teaching from his own videos and blogs and home page. Those are the ‘fruits’ we will know false prophets by (Matt 7:15-23). Ray Comfort is perfectly charming and seemingly humble, however, his gospel is still accursed.
I’ve had some people ask about Ray Comfort’s Gospel. Some have shared they have family and friends that are completely sold out to his gospel. They LOVE the Way of the Master program. They swear by it.
Others? Well sadly, they love to go around calling others ‘false converts’ based on judging their behavior… (never once asking if they have believed the gospel, which is the ONE and ONLY condition to be saved eternally).
Ray Comfort’s Erroneous Doctrine
A friend recently asked me, “So what is it about Ray Comfort’s gospel that is a problem”?
I’ll answer to the best of my ability without hopefully making it a book. Any sincere questions/comments are welcome (please, do it sans the typical multi-insults or turning to teach us load-ship, are welcome to be part of this discussion). You can even disagree with me if you are willing to use the Word of God to test what He says. Come let’s reason together (but let’s use God’s Word alone).
I am firmly convinced that from both hearing him, and researching him over the years, that Ray Comfort’s supposed gospel is unfortunately another gospel — (as likable or charming as he may be to some). He does a good job of pointing people to sin in their lives, but a terrible job of giving them the right solution to that sin. I have to say that I really genuinely hope that he and Kirk Cameron have become waylaid by this lordship doctrine teaching and at one time believed the only gospel. I don’t desire for them to be lost either.
Is turning from sin part of the gospel message?
The ‘turn from all sin‘ or ‘repent from all your sin’ message is another gospel. Living in Holiness. Why? Isn’t that a righteous thing to do? Isn’t that what repent means to turn from your sin? (No it doesn’t). Turning from sin (although good) is a work of the law (Numbers 5:6-7). Turning from sin may save us from consequences in this physical life, but it cannot contribute to receiving eternal life.
It is a work, please see the works that Nineveh did, that they > TURNED FROM THEIR SIN and God saw ‘it’ (their works) was good — but still it was called works (Jonah 3:9-10). Nineveh wasn’t saved eternally, they were saved for a time (had a stay on God destroying their land — it happened later). Eternally speaking, adding our work of turning from or stopping sin, becomes a works-based salvation that will not save.
Here Ray says repentance is ‘perpetually turning from sin‘ and ‘confessing and forsaking your sins’. He also says it is to ‘turn from all sin‘. He also states he never deliberately sins. Watch this video exposing some of this. What is sickening in the comments of one of Ono’s videos is that Living Waters accuses him of wanting to just live in pornography.
Be very careful noting what Ray says, prove all things (1 Thess 5:21). He is very subtle and clever. The law is a tutor that points us to Christ, but it is written on our hearts, and we all know we have done wrong whether one admits it or not. He will say certain things that just aren’t what the Word says. Here in this video he tells her that the law is the mirror we look into (speaking of the 10 commandments). But James 1 says it is the Law of Liberty that we look into.
But be doers of the word, and not hearers only, deceiving yourselves. For if anyone is a hearer of the word and not a doer, he is like a man observing his natural face in a mirror; for he observes himself, goes away, and immediately forgets what kind of man he was. But he who looks into the perfect law of liberty and continues in it, and is not a forgetful hearer but a doer of the work, this one will be blessed in what he does. James 1:22-25
After going through the law, he likes to call them lying, adulterers, blasphemers, etc. And then he will finally briefly mention the cross, and tell them they have to repent. But he says it is an ‘old-fashioned word that means to turn from your sins‘. Repent is a Hebrew and Greek word used in the Bible. God repented more than anyone in the Old Testament. Do you think it means ‘turn from your sin’? Read more here about the meaning.
Why is ‘repent from all your sin’ incorrect?
“Repentance, its meaning and Application” by Tom Cucuzza, Free PDF download
My friend Angela noted this regarding this video.
In this video, (between time stamps 6:10 to 6:30), Comfort tells an agnostic young man that what he “must do is obey the command of God to repent, turn from your sins, let them go, trust the love of Jesus Christ.”
First of all, there is no “command of God” in the Bible to “turn from your sins” (to receive the free gift of eternal life) or “let them go regarding salvation.”
Why? Not just because it’s never stated, but also because that is simply not possible until we have His Spirit to help. God’s requirement is perfection, and adding our work or attempting to, makes it another gospel. Even after salvation (eternal life), we continue to sin — although hopefully not nearly as much as we did before being saved if we are growing in Christ and His Word.
The Apostle John wrote to believers in 1 John and said that those who say they have no sin > they are deceived and liars. Ray Comfort has even been recorded saying he has stopped sinning. But Jesus Christ is called our mediator and advocate with the Father. Why would we need a Mediator? Because we still do sin even though we have been saved.
It is impossible to fully turn from your sins, or to turn from sinning. The gospel has nothing to do with “turning from your sins” or “surrendering all” >> to be saved. We believe that is part of our walk as we learn to walk in His Spirit so we will not fulfill the lusts of the flesh (Gal 5:16).
So what is the gospel (good news)?
The gospel is solely about Who Christ is and what He did for us in great love. We are asked to place our faith in Jesus Christ and His work alone — believing in Who He said He is, and what He did for you on the cross: He died for all of your sin (Col 2:13-15), resurrected from the dead as He said He would. None of us can do anything to help save ourselves. If we tried to include turning from our sins, we would end up in hell because we never can be perfect. God’s standard is perfection.
Ray Comfort said nothing about FAITH or placing faith in Christ in his video, as is the sole requirement found in the gospel that Paul preached, that John preached, and that Jesus preached. This is but one of many videos I have witness Comfort stating this as the gospel to lost people.
Are we to believe that Comfort has turned from his sins and no longer sins? After all, he likes to point out that those who lie, lust, steal, etc. (SIN) go to hell. But we have ALL sinned and fall short of His glory. Just one sin, one lie, in our entire lifetime, keeps us from heaven (Rev 21:27). Break one law, you break them ALL Mr. Comfort (James 2:10-12). Only a perfect Savior and His perfect work, and promise of eternal life can be the answer. The promise He swore by Himself, and there is no greater.
Ray Comfort’s false Gospel of works
What Comfort is giving out is a false gospel. Tragically, he makes some excellent points in getting people to think about God’s existence and sins they have committed. (I say tragically because he gives them the wrong solution). He short-changes them when it comes to actually telling them HOW to be saved. The law is written on our hearts, we know we have sinned whether we admit it or not (Rom 2:14-15).
Lastly, it is impossible for an unregenerate person to “turn from his (or her) sins” (at least to God’s perfect satisfaction) before they are saved. One cannot even fully understand the gravity of their sin until they have the indwelling of the Holy Spirit, who is given to them when they BELIEVE the gospel (Eph 1:13). And even then, we continue to have our eyes opened as the entrance of His Word brings light into our lives and washes us.
IS TURN FROM ALL OUR SINS THE GOSPEL?
Maybe this will start some dialogue and hopefully some comments I can address from his followers, or those who are concerned who have seen his ‘gospel’.
The Picture on the left, is Ray Comfort misusing Matthew 7, to identify his ‘false converts’ instead of rightly providing context this passage speaks to, which is ‘false prophets‘ and their bad fruit.
Ray Comfort says regarding Matt 7:15-22:
“These are perhaps the most frightening verses in the Bible. Vast multitudes of professing Christians fit into the category spoken of here. They call Jesus ‘Lord,’ but they practice lawlessness. They profess faith in Jesus, but have no regard for the divine law. They tell ‘fibs’ or ‘white’ lies, take things that belong to others, have a roaming eye for the opposite sex, etc. They are liars, thieves, and adulterers at heart, who will be cast from the gates of heaven into the jaws of hell.” END QUOTE
I always wonder when they (the Calvinists and Lordship teachers) speak of these things, do they not consider their own sin? Do they really believe they are without sin? Is it just having a “regard” for the “divine law” or having enough regard? Or wouldn’t it have to be a perfect regard for the law? Or is it that they don’t ‘practice’ sin? How much sin is ‘practicing’ sin? I’m guessing it must be two since Ray used ‘fibs’ as a plural. How many fibs is acceptable? 1, 2, 5, 10 in a lifetime? This is the trouble with adding to what His Word says. Minds are corrupted from the simplicity that is in Christ (2 Cor 11:3-4).
Surely the above quote makes it clear, that Ray Comfort thinks anyone who tells more
than one white lie (plural – fibs), or a combination of any of the above sins, is going to hell even if they have professed faith in Christ. This is similar to the teaching of sinless perfection along with a hyper ‘perseverance of the saints’ (and no, perseverance of the saints does not equal a Biblical teaching of eternal security).
What is Lawlessness?
The law is made for those who are not righteous (1 Tim 1:9) and is a tutor to point them to Christ. The word is translated as ‘workers of iniquity’ in Matthew 7 also. And Psalm 94:4 says the ‘workers of iniquity’ boast in themselves. The very thing the false prophets are doing with their ‘many wonderful works’ in Matthew 7.
IS THE LAW FOR ME?
For Christ is the end of the law for righteousness to every one that believeth. Rom 10:4
FOR THEM…
For they being ignorant of God’s righteousness, and going about to establish their own righteousness, have not submitted themselves unto the righteousness of God. Rom 10:3
For you? Are you sure of Heaven? Click here if you want to know more.
RAY COMFORT INSISTS YOU MUST TURN FROM SIN
He states: “Merely being sorry for your sins, or confessing them to God won’t help you. You must turn from sin” (he says turning from sin = the meaning of repent, however, it is not).
Then he adds your faith must be in Jesus Christ alone. He rightly now says, faith is the only “grounds” for God to grant mercy towards you (the one thing he gets right). He continues if you’re not sure of your salvation, make Psalm 51 your own prayer.” 1
If you are of the persuasion that turning from sin is part of something you must do in order to be saved, you are mistaken. You may think it sounds o.k., but it is not what the Bible actually teaches. The original word used with eternal life, that is translated repent = change your mind or think differently after. Sometimes other original words translated repent mean regret, but we do not find that word ever being used with the receipt of salvation from hell. So if you rightly understand that repent means change/mind or after/think, you should really consider how Comfort defines repenting, so you can understand why his gospel is accursed. Read Galatians 1-4
If you would like a better understanding of the Biblical definition of repentance, please consider these two sermons by Pastor Thomas Cucuzza.
(See Tom Cucuzza) UNDERSTANDING REPENTANCE Pt 1
(See Tom Cucuzza) UNDERSTANDING REPENTANCE Pt 2
Ray Comfort teaches you must STOP sinning
Go to 4:34 in this video (video has subsequently been removed) and you will hear him tell this young woman: “You’ve got to repent, turn from your sins, and put your trust in Jesus Christ… You’ve got to trust in him and stop sinning.”
How can she turn from sins and stop sinning (if that were even possible) before she has believed and been regenerated. How can she do better, let alone STOP?
If a saved person still sins, how can an unsaved person turn from sinning/stop sinning before they’re saved?? There is absolutely zero scripture to back this. Why is Comfort not quoting directly from the scripture? Why is he not quoting the gospel as proclaimed clearly in the Bible? God ‘wrote’ (gave) the Bible, it’s His gospel, His way of saving us.
Why is this man changing God’s gospel? We all need to ask this very important question. God has harsh words for anyone who gives any other gospel but the true gospel, which was preached by Paul to all who will hear and believe.
(Thank you again to my friend Angela for the above).
Unfortunately BEREAN CALL also glowingly recommends “Hell’s best kept Secret” along with the “Genius” movie by Ray Comfort. SEE HERE
Let’s look at one of his Calvinist supporters John MacArthur:
By the way, “repentance from sin” is never found once preached with the gospel. Repent is used at times, however, repent does not = repent from sin. Turning from sin is found in the Word as a WORK (Jonah 3:10). Works may be good things, but they may NOT be added to the gospel. (What is repentance?)
Ray Comfort also takes the Calvinist view of repentance. You are ‘gifted’ with the correct repentance in order to be saved. He also takes the Calvinist view on faith being the gift you were given (citing Rom 12:3 spoken to believers, and often they also cite the gift in Eph 2:8-9 is faith not salvation). Even so he denies he is either Calvinist or Arminian. He also says, “Salvation doesn’t come from ‘making a decision’ but through repentance GIVEN by God”.
So maybe you are chosen for heaven, maybe chosen to hell by their understanding of Scripture. I do not agree. And I do not think it is taught in the Bible, although they have their proof texts selectively ordered to teach it.
So as the saying goes, if you are believing for their type of salvation; WAIT FOR IT….
That would be your only hope if what Ray Comfort preaches were true.
Ray Comfort also uses the Calvinist John 6:44 proof-text of no one coming except God draw Him. They leave out the fact that God draws ALL men(John 12:32 among many, many others).
Comfort says:
(From the booklet Save Yourself Some Pain.)
Comfort believes repentance is forsaking our sins: (see Screen shot from his 100 FAQ page on livingwaters). “We are dead in our 
trespasses and sins (Ephesians 2:1) and until we forsake them through repentance, we cannot be made alive in Christ.”
(Keep in mind again, he is speaking to a a sinner, one who is ungodly, and without strength (Rom 5), but still, he insists you forsake your sin, turn from all sin in order to be saved).
if so, why did John leave that out of the gospel of John?
Where is ‘turning from your sins’?
Where is ‘repenting from your sins’?
Where is ‘forsaking your sins’?
Was the beloved disciple lying?
Did he omit something?
Was his purpose statement below incomplete?
And many other signs truly did Jesus in the presence of his disciples, which are not written in this book: but these are written, that ye might believe that Jesus is the Christ, the Son of God; and that believing ye might have life through his name. John 20:30-31
(Did the Beloved Disciple John tell the truth or not?)
Keep in mind RAY COMFORT’S definition of repent is to TURN FROM ALL SINS.
Comfort: “The forgiveness that is in Jesus Christ is conditional upon ‘repentance towards God, and faith toward our Lord Jesus Christ’ (Acts 20:21). It is a gift that God offers to everyone, but individuals must receive it by repenting and trusting in Christ, or they will remain dead in their sins. (This would be true if repentance was defined to mean a change of mind towards God and faith toward our Lord Jesus Christ.)
Also bear in mind by this additional statement below, Ray Comfort must be sinless.
“No one has Biblical grounds to continue in sin, assuming that they are safe just because Jesus died on the cross. See 1 John 3:4-6.” (THE EVIDENCE BIBLE, by Ray Comfort, pg. 1513; 2003, Bridge-Logos Publishers)
ANOTHER INTERVIEW WITH GOD
In the video, “Another Interview with God” (go to the end to see the ‘prayer’). Also, frequently these videos go ‘missing’ so search for it as you see in the youtube search bar. Living Waters will be identified at at the end as the maker of the video. Comfort says: This is what you could pray to get right with God:
“Dear God, I repent (turn away from) of all my sins (name them if they come to mind). (ALL YOUR SINS???) This day I put my trust in Jesus Christ as my Lord and Savior because I know You sent Him to save me from your wrath. Please forgive me, and grant me your gift of everlasting life. Change my heart, and make me who You want me to be. I ask this in Jesus name. Amen.” 2
At 4:10 Ray Comfort explains the two things you must do to be saved. He had already asked the guy and he had him so confused, (he had initially said he believed).
Where is the gospel? Ray says you must:
1) Repent which (according to him) means to Turn from ALL sins
2) Trust alone in Jesus Christ for your salvation 3
FROM NEED GOD – Ray Comfort’s site
Is this what we must do to be saved? Or are these works?
REPENT OF OUR SINS
CONFESS OUR SINS
FORSAKE OUR SINS
MAKE JESUS THE ‘MASTER’ OF OUR LIVES.
Is Jesus not
Lord of All? Do we make Jesus MASTER over our lives? Do we have to repent of ALL our sins? Pray Psalm 51? This Psalm is from SAVED King David, this is not a prayer for eternal life, and prayer is not how we are saved, it is by BELIEVING upon Christ and Him crucified. This will be my stopping point for now. No, I have no personal vendetta against Ray Comfort. So those kinds of comments I will not be posting. Please prayerfully consider your questions as foolish arguments will be declined.
In Christ’s love, Holly
See the article by Jim at “Stand for the Faith” Blog.
‘How to be Saved’ in Ray Comfort’s own Words
Added 7-12
Do you see any issues with this comment by Spurgeon that Ray Comfort posted?
FOOTNOTES:
These are not recommended sites necessarily, most often these are citations straight from the ‘horse’s mouth’ and are so that people can hear/read for themselves what really is being taught. This is only a very small portion of what will be shared.
If you intend to use a PRO, maybe let me know, PRO: “He makes sure people are aware of their sin and need for a Savior”, or CON: He shames people and embarrasses them instead of making the point we ALL have sinned and fallen short of God’s glory.
(That is an example only).
Fantastic blog post. Very thorough. I’ve never seen a more complete exposé on the false teaching of Ray “Stop Sinning!” Discomfort.
Fryingpan9, thank you. He is no comfort, is he? Nor is this truth, so I pray some might see, no matter how charming, or likable, I pray they might search the Scriptures to see if these things are really so.
Holly,
I am really glad I found your article. I finished the way of the master program, and felt a bit uncomfortable about the things Ray was saying. I still love to go out and witness with the group, but I don’t like calling people out on their Christianity. I just like telling people to believe in Jesus for salvation and the forgiveness of their sins. That’s what gets you in! (Romans 10:9) The million dollar bills are ok to hand out, but I’m coming up with my own “Simple” tracts. I’m glad you pointed out 2 Cor 11:3. Thank You! Brad
Brad, I’m so happy you came to comment. I don’t like calling people out, that’s very uncomfortable for me, but we’re told over and over in His Word, to do just that, most especially if they touch the gospel. Romans 10:9 is confusing for people when used in relation to eternal life, for they get confused and think believing is not enough.
Here’s a couple of link where you can print out the gospel, either place preaches a clear gospel. I know it’s certainly hard to find.
Free pdf you can’t print out by Pastor Tom Cucuzza.
http://s3.amazonaws.com/storage.nm-storage.com/northlandchurch/downloads/how_to_be_sure_you_are_going_to_heaven_with_cover.pdf
I know the admins here would also be happy for you to use this:
http://expreacherman.com/eternal-life-for-you/
You can also search here for Gospel and gather some Bible verses. Besides 2 Cor 11:3, vs. 4 is important, for we are not to put up with another gospel.
For if he who comes preaches another Jesus whom we have not preached, or if you receive a different spirit which you have not received, or a different gospel which you have not accepted—you may well put up with it!
Also remember, we are all called to do this, for the defense of the gospel.
Beloved, when I gave all diligence to write unto you of the common salvation, it was needful for me to write unto you, and exhort you that ye should earnestly contend for the faith which was once delivered unto the saints. Jude 3
Now I beseech you, brethren, mark them which cause divisions and offences contrary to the doctrine which ye have learned; and avoid them. For they that are such serve not our Lord Jesus Christ, but their own belly; and by good words and fair speeches deceive the hearts of the simple. Romans 16:17-18
In Him, Holly
Hi Holly,
I think you misunderstood me. I don’t like how the program teaches people to call out others on their Christianity ie “calling them false converts” like your article states. Although, I’ve never really heard that specific phrase in the program. They just seem to expect you to press people even when you know they are most likely believers. I usually ask people if they believe Jesus is God, and if they tell me yes, then I don’t usually dig too much further. Who am I do judge their salvation? Thank you for the scriptures. They are very helpful. This lordship theology seems to be creeping up everywhere. Paul washer is the worst with his “No fruit no root” gospel. I have two questions… The program likes to use Matt 7:21-23. “Not everyone who says to me Lord, Lord…” so, who do you think these people are whom Jesus is referring?, and do you believe Matt 7:13-14 means only a few people will make it to heaven, or is that passage referring to Jews / Israel 70 AD? Your input would be extremely helpful. Thanks again!
In Christ,
Brad
So glad you clarified, thanks for letting me know Brad. Actually I agree, I don’t like that, nor when he calls them lying, cheating, coveting, thieving, adulterers at heart. I’d rather relate that we are all sinners. If people believe Jesus is God, I want to make sure the reason He was crucified for their sins, and what He saves them from, what His resurrection means. I like to be sure that they’ve understood that the gift is eternal life.
I don’t judge one’s salvation, just that if I think one hasn’t understood the gospel, I want to help them hear the good news. I agree with you on Matthew 7 and the incorrect usage. Those people justify themselves by their many wonderful works (which is never questioned) but inwardly they are ravening wolves dressed in sheep’s clothing (so you sure can’t tell on the outside). I think that 13-14 mean that only a few will believe on the narrow way (Jesus) and the strait gate (Jesus) alone, and instead will insist upon a broad path (of works) to heaven…(which is really the road to destruction).
Thanks again, great to hear. In Jesus Christ eternally, Holly
The Gospel is really quite simple and we read it in 1 Cor 15:1-4. Believe Christ died for your sins, was buried and rose again on the 3rd day. That’s the only Gospel that saves. Preach that and you won’t have all these lengthy side comments.
Thanks Erik. Yes, it is about who Christ is and what He did for us.
Yes Holly, agreed. I like to tell them they are saved from their sin, but usually I can tell in the spirit who is just saying they believe and who really does believe.
Could you please clarify what you mean in the last sentence? Did you mean broad path to hell? The bible says the broad path leads to “destruction” not heaven. And, do you think this means only a few people who have ever lived will go to heaven?
Rev ch 7 says there was “a great multitude that no one could count” who will be saved during just the tribulation, so that leads me to believe more people will be saved in general than most people think?
In Christ,
Brad
Thanks Brad for pointing that out, I should have been more clear. I will clarify it in my comment, yes, I meant to say heaven, but meaning that they say or insist that this is the way, when it is not, it really leads to destruction. I think few means few, so I don’t speculate too much, not knowing if it is for a certain time, I tend to take it literally. In the tribulation, I think there will be many, because of the obvious nature of where the wrath is coming from. Yet we know people will still choose the evil side.
t
In the gospel, I like to really explain to them that they are saved from the penalty of their sin. The wages of sin is death, and that’s not speaking to physical death, but eternal death, the contrast in that same verse in Romans 6:23, BUT the gift of God is eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord. When we believe, He is the Lamb of God who takes our sins away. We receive forgiveness for all our sins, all our trespasses paid for at the cross. (Eph 1:7; Col 1:14; Col 2:13-15).
I think people don’t understand being saved from their sins, what it means is that they are saved from eternal destruction from their sins. Believers still sin, and some who do not cooperate might not be saved from physical destruction or consequences from their sins. So, it’s good with the gospel for people to understand, what being saved from our sins means. To those who aren’t saved, they think on these grandiose testimonies by people of being delivered from drugs or lives of crime, and it doesn’t compute. They need to know that they need a Savior, to be saved from the wages of their sin. Once saved, when we cooperate, we are being saved (practically) from the power of sin in our lives. And one day, we’ll be saved forever from the presence of sin.
In Him, Holly
Thanks Again Holly,
That’s what I thought you probably meant. I use to lean towards universalism when I was younger and naive. So, I was hoping you weren’t one of those. lol I do wish everybody was accepting the free gift and was coming to heaven, but that’s just not the case. There is an arrogance with some Christians who think they are in some exclusive club or something. God wills that “All” people be saved. I don’t know for absolute certainty that Jesus meant that only a few people will be saved in Matt 7 13-14, but it does look like that is what he means. I have heard different commentaries, but most lean that way. I’m still holding out hope that perhaps he was speaking metaphorically. Until I get complete peace with that scripture, I will hold out hope. I just don’t get it. It’s so simple. Everybody will get a fair chance to accept Christ and heaven or Satan and hell. Why would God make somebody so ridiculously stupid as to make that ridiculous choice for eternal pain? That’s what I’ve always struggled with. But, the bible does speak of people going to hell, so I have peace with knowing that. But, just thinking about it starts to put me there mentally and make my head hurt, so I don’t like to dwell on it. It makes me sad. Anyway, I’m not called to question it; I’m just called to tell people the truth and how to make the right choice. That choice is up to them. i don’t believe you can lose your salvation, because saved is a future, past tense word. The word saved in and of itself implies it’s a done deal already. It would be like unscrambling eggs. It just can’t be done even if somebody was that stupid to do it. lol That’s how secure we are. Thanks Holly.
In His grace,
Brad
Brad, It is terribly sad, it is so hard to think on. I ponder those who know it is the wrath of the Lamb, and would rather the hills and the mountains fall on them. They’d rather rebel against Him, will curse Him. It’s unfathomable, but some are foolish, those who do not believe have no excuse, because Romans 1 tells us He has made it known to them. But we know that the gospel is powerful, so we can just keep sharing in faith.
Thanks for your good comments, in Christ. Holly
Hi Holly,
I found a good article on Ray Comfort. Here is the link. http://www.ministers-best-friend.com/Ray-Comfort-false-prophet-heretic-Works-Salvation–COURSE-BIB-SAL-250.html
I also have a question on Luke 8: 12-13:
12 “Those by the way side are they that hear; then cometh the devil, and taketh away the word out of their hearts, lest they should believe and be saved. 13 They on the rock are they, which, when they hear, receive the word with joy; and these have no root, which for a while believe, and in time of temptation fall away.”
The author of the article feels the people in Luke 8:13 are in fact saved, because they “Receive the word with joy” and “Believe.” And, because the people in vs 12 are said to not be saved, then he feels the people in vs 13 must be saved. But, the scripture says they believe “For a while” and then “fall away” kind of like the people in Hebrews 6:6 who “fall away” and are definitely not saved and never were. This is one of Ray’s arguments as to why he says salvation is “More than just belief.” Which, I totally disagree with.
So, do you believe the people in vs 13 are saved?
This is why I like Romans 10:9, because it is very detailed in defining exactly what to believe for salvation not just belief in general without description. It’s the “exact formula” if you will. ( :
In Christ,
Brad
Hi Brad, yes, I believe they are saved. Believing is the condition, and is repeated close to a couple hundred times in relation to eternal life. I think where people get confused is with the word saved or salvation. The majority of the time in the Bible it is not speaking of deliverance from eternal death/hell, but deliverance or being saved from consequences or loss of some kind. One of our admins here John, has these questions answered on expreacherman.com
Here is the Luke 8 passage.
Luke 8:12-15
[12] Those by the way side are they that hear; then cometh the devil, and taketh away the word out of their hearts, lest they should believe and be saved.
[13] They on the rock are they, which, when they hear, receive the word with joy; and these have no root, which for a while believe, and in time of temptation fall away.
[14] And that which fell among thorns are they, which, when they have heard, go forth, and are choked with cares and riches and pleasures of this life, and bring no fruit to perfection.
[15] But that on the good ground are they, which in an honest and good heart, having heard the word, keep it, and bring forth fruit with patience.
Question: Which groups of people in the parable of the Sower represent saved people?
Answer: The first group (Luke 8:12) represents unsaved people. The other three groups (Luke 8:13-15) represent eternally secure believers, with varying degrees of faithfulness. The Bible is clear that anyone who believes in Christ as Savior has eternal life that can never be lost or forfeited. Those people represented by soils 2-4 all believed in Jesus.
As for Romans 10:9, please consider this, also from John at expreacherman.com
Romans 10:9-15
[9] That if thou shalt confess with thy mouth the Lord Jesus, and shalt believe in thine heart that God hath raised him from the dead, thou shalt be saved.
[10] For with the heart man believeth unto righteousness; and with the mouth confession is made unto salvation.
[11] For the scripture saith, Whosoever believeth on him shall not be ashamed.
[12] For there is no difference between the Jew and the Greek: for the same Lord over all is rich unto all that call upon him.
[13] For whosoever shall call upon the name of the Lord shall be saved.
[14] How then shall they call on him in whom they have not believed? and how shall they believe in him of whom they have not heard? and how shall they hear without a preacher?
[15] And how shall they preach, except they be sent? as it is written, How beautiful are the feet of them that preach the gospel of peace, and bring glad tidings of good things!
Question: Romans 10:9-15 seems to say that believing in Jesus AND confessing Him are required in order to be saved. This seems to contradict the many passages in the Bible that say that salvation is by grace through faith in Christ. Is confessing Christ (verses 9 and 10) required in order to receive eternal life?
Calling on the name of the Lord (verse 13)? Both?
Answer: No. No. No. The Bible says repeatedly that whoever believes in Jesus Christ as Savior has eternal life. Neither calling on the name of the Lord or confessing Christ are additional requirements for receiving eternal life.
The confusion comes from the errant assumption that the word “saved” in the Bible always refers to receiving eternal life. There are many places in the Bible (such as Romans 10:9-15, Matthew 10:22 and James 5:20) in which the word “saved” has nothing to do with receiving eternal life.
Why would God park additional requirements for receiving eternal life in the middle of Romans, and fail to mention them anywhere else in scripture?
We know that confessing Christ is not required in order to receive eternal life from John 12:42-43:
[42] Nevertheless among the chief rulers also many believed on him; but because of the Pharisees they did not confess him, lest they should be put out of the synagogue:
[43] For they loved the praise of men more than the praise of God.
Here, we can see that these men believed on Him (Jesus Christ), which always results in eternal life. But, they did not confess Him.
In Romans 10:10, we see that someone believes unto righteousness. That means he is declared not guilty of his sins. He has eternal life from that moment on. He is not required to confess Christ in order to receive eternal life again. So, the words “saved” and “salvation” in this passage clearly cannot have to do with receiving eternal life.
Once someone has received eternal life, by Grace, through faith in Christ alone, he may confess Christ and pray to God for deliverance from trials, temptations, physical danger, etc. But, neither confessing Christ nor calling on the name of the Lord is required to receive eternal life.
We see this same concept in Romans 10:13-15, in which the Apostle Paul speaks of this process, rhetorically, in reverse order.
Here is the chronological order:
1. A preacher is sent – verse 15 (except they be sent)
2. He preaches – verse 15 (how shall they preach)
3. The unbeliever hears – verse 14 (how shall they hear)
4. The hearer believes, and is therein justified – verse 14 (how shall they believe)
5. The believer calls on the name of the Lord – verse 14 (how then shall they call on him)
One does not receive eternal life through faith in Christ and any additional conditions, such as confessing Christ or calling on the name of the Lord. One receives eternal life by grace alone through faith alone in Christ alone.
For more difficult passages, please see their link here.
http://expreacherman.com/2014/06/01/some-lordship-salvationists-pet-passages-explained/#_edn17
Hi Holly,
Thanks, I believe the way that you do that belief in the gospel is all it takes, and that makes sense. But, doesn’t the belief have to be sincere? I know many people who believe Jesus was a person who died on a cross, and the gospel sounds like a great thing to them, but they just don’t “fully” believe it unto salvation. In fact, I have a friend Paul who said he use to believe and “Received it with joy” at one time but just doesn’t buy it anymore. It’s just hard to understand that if somebody stops believing (Luke 8:13), then they are still saved. For me, I can’t “Not” believe ever again. The gospel is as real as the nose on my face. To stop believing to me would be like looking in the mirror and saying nope, my nose isn’t there. It would be impossible for me to ever stop believing. So, how can somebody believe for “Just a while” and it still be saving belief?
In Christ,
Brad
You know Brad, I’m reading a book by Charles Templeton, who used to preach with Billy Graham and now says he doesn’t believe. And he too ‘received it with joy’ and ‘loved Billy Graham’, however, what he received may indeed have been another spirit (2 Cor 11:3-4), as I read through his ‘testimony’, there is no gospel, but an experience, similar to a Calvinist regeneration. With his background, it didn’t surprise me.
I don’t like personally to qualify the word ‘believe’, I dare not, it’s what the Bible tells us we are to do. So I prefer to tell people they must believe and leave that simplicity in and not convolute it with my own words. That is the sole condition the Word of God sets up. Whether they really did or not, only they know, and only the Lord knows. If one really did believe and has fallen away, I know what I should be doing if I love Jesus. The remedy is not questioning another’s salvation or quality of their faith, but finding out if they have understood and believed the right gospel. That the object of their faith is in Jesus and not in Jesus plus confessing Him publicly, surrendering all, turning from our sins, being really sorry, etc. If they have understood and believed, then the remedy is to feed His sheep. Commend them to the Word of His grace (Acts 20:31), encourage them to spend time with the Lord hearing His Word (Lk 10:38-42) so that they might be sanctified, washed by it, cleansed by it (Jn 17:17, Eph 5:26; Ps 119:9). So I either go over the gospel again, and if they have believed the gospel at one time, without additions, then I must feed them, they are in famine and cannot think clearly or see. They are blinded and shortsighted and barren and unfruitful and have forgotten they were purged from their sins (2 Pet 1).
I was struck by one thing in the book I am reading — that is, that Templeton never presented a clear gospel, but so far as I have seen, only a repent from sin, walk an aisle, have an experience, loadship definition of a gospel (which is another-2 Cor 11:3-4). I believe he was caught up with joy by a false gospel, but I cannot know for sure.
One thing I know, we can judge nothing really before it’s time. We can’t go by what we imagine would not/could not happen to us, because I personally can’t imagine it either. Nowhere in His Word does it talk about ‘saving belief’ either, although I understand what you are saying. We need to concentrate on the gospel itself, and keeping it clear, for the gospel is the power of God unto salvation. Now that is what will save 🙂
There is a very good sermon I listened to recently called “Saving the Saved” by Tom Cucuzza, I’ll go get you the link in a minute. Saved people need saved. Some have never had any grounding in the Word. Some have become anorexic and lost a taste for food. Some have looked in that mirror and forgotten what kind of a person they were. James 1 continues to tell us if we are not a forgetful hearer but a doer of the work, we will be blessed.
Here is the link to ‘Saving the Saved‘ by Pastor Cucuzza.
Holly, it’s hard to say whether Templeton or Billy Graham ever understood and believed the gospel. Billy Graham still preaches A gospel, but it is not THE gospel.
Sorry Brad, my first comment was so long, and never got beyond to the part of ‘saving belief’. Here are some things for you to consider, and check out in His Word.
Believing for eternal life is not some process, it is a one time event whereby we are given eternal life (hath is ‘echo’ which means possess, to have to hold, own). When we believe, we are passed from death unto life, already seated in heavenly places, sealed until the day of redemption – rivers of living water flow out of us when the Holy Spirit is given. We are translated into the kingdom of His dear Son, perfected forever by one sacrifice, all our trespasses paid for at the cross. It is finished. (John 5:24; Eph 4:30; Eph 2:5-6; John 7:38-39; Heb 10:10, 14; Col 2:13-15; John 19:30)
How can someone believe for awhile? The disciples did just that. They had a multitude of times of unbelief, do you not remember that Jesus called them CLEAN, (all of them but Judas), several times? They were already possessors of eternal life, they said they were sure that He was the Christ, the Son of the Living God, and knew He had words of eternal life (end of Jn 6).
Still, many times they were in unbelief. Why? Temptations. Fears. Cares of this world…
The verse before Luke 8:13 is clear, “lest they believe and be saved“! Those who BELIEVE are saved, period. It does not say lest they believe AND endure.
They believe and are SAVED (Gifted with eternal life, with Christ’s righteousness, with the Holy Spirit).
Thomas was saved, but Jesus told him to not be faithless — to not be unbelieving (Jn 20).
The women came back from the sepulchre, telling the 11 apostles what they had been told, that He had risen from the dead, that the Son of man would be delivered into the hands of sinful men, and be crucified, and on the third day He would rise again (which they had already been told by Jesus many times in advance, so that when it happened, they would believe). Can you remember the response of the apostles?
It was Mary Magdalene and Joanna, and Mary the mother of James, and other women that were with them, which told these things unto the apostles. And their words seemed to them as idle tales, and they believed them not. Luke 24:10-11
Whoa, wait a minute, did they not have a ‘saving faith’? If they had died right then, would they have been with Him? Yes! For He already told them they would have thrones in heaven, and again, He already declared them clean multiple times.
After that he appeared in another form unto two of them, as they walked, and went into the country. And they went and told it unto the residue: neither believed they them. Afterward he appeared unto the eleven as they sat at meat, and upbraided them with their unbelief and hardness of heart, because they believed not them which had seen him after he was risen. Mark 16:13-14
The two on the road to Emmaus
Then he said unto them, O fools, and slow of heart to believe all that the prophets have spoken: Ought not Christ to have suffered these things, and to enter into his glory? And beginning at Moses and all the prophets, he expounded unto them in all the scriptures the things concerning himself. Luke 24:25-27
I hope some of this helps, I provided a link so you could look up the verses easily in order to search the Scriptures to see if these things are so, prove all things (Acts 17:11; 1 Thess 5:21).
In Christ, Holly
Brad …now fonally someone is getting it…te people here commenting have over simplified the FULL Gospel ….BELIEVE “ON” Jesus = Believe EVERYTHING he said and did, NOT just believe He is a real person and did miracles and really existed…the scripture says Demons believe and tremble…they don’t get saved…know why? They can NOT repent….Jesus madeJoh it CLEAR that JOHN the Baptist was the greatest prophet born among women and that he was sent to PREPARE the hearts of men…PREPARE for what? To believe and recieve Jesus…AFTER they Repented…so when they repented and were baptised…they were ready to simply just hear: Believe in the Lord Jesus Christ and you shall be saved….REMEMBER he was ONLY preaching to Jews first….so them knowing the Scriptures…they knew they were sinners and needed to be willing to make 180 degree turn (doing itin actuality may not have mattered as God knows the heart and that they made the choice to mentally and in the heart repent….which is all that is needed so that when you recieve the Holy Spirit, you will have the power to take action).
This is why you hear people saying the FULL GOSPEL, because Believe In The Lord Jesus Christ is only half of it.
Consider this…i I asked you to tell me the whole Bible story of Moses, 99% of Christians and pastors will go to Exodus and quote it and think they are done! Guess what? There is missing information that if you don’t read the entire Bible, you will ot get or tell as part of the story….such as When the Devil was disputing over the Body of Moses……..Also Inonce saw a perfectly word for word accurate movie on the book of John…it was word for word perfectly quoted….but the movie got something wrong….even though there was nothing in the book of John to indicate exactly what Jesus did….when he was giving site to the blind man, in the movie is shows Jesus picking up dirt in his hand and then spitting on it in his hand and then putting it on the eyes of the blind man…John doesnt give much details….but Had they read the other Gospels…it SPECIFICALLY says Jesus Spat on the ground first…then picked up the dirt with saliva already on it which he mixed…..this is what happens when people read a verse but dont know the WHOLE councel of God…as is such when they read: Believe in the Lord Jesus Christ and you shall be saved….if you read the rest of scripture, you get an understanding that “Believe” means believe everything Jesus is about and did….and if you believe what he did then believing what He said follows….and Jesus said John came to prepare the way for him…that is bringing men to repentance so that it is ready to recieve the gift of salvation…..thats why the Bible says to do works that prove your repentance. And that is why we must test ourselves to see if we past the test of really being saved…….I attended Calavary Chapel the Mega church for 10 years and noticed how many people got seemingly “saved” but also noticed how many backslid and fell away..it was the biggest i have ever seen….and I finally realized why….I never heard Repentance taught…in a way that actually brings you to that point of being regretfull of your sins which is necessary for you to know “why” you need to be saved….Paul said: Show me yoir faith without works and I will show you my faith BY my works (proving his salvation is genuine and not just a belief)
The Bible is sometimes a puzzle that we need to put the pieces together…it was made that way intentionally I believe similar to the Parables…which make the blind blinder and those who see, see more….it proves whats in the heart…that you either truly want to search out God, or that you are just saying it to appear holy or to fool yourself.
Read The WHOLE Bible to understand what salvation in Christ means…not just a bunch of verses.
Leirbag, I wish I could say I agreed with you. Unfortunately even confusing speeches have some truth in them but partial verses and long explanations don’t mean someone understands the truth. Btw, I can’t and won’t entertain long statements that really contain little Scriptural truth intermingled with a lot of error.
The gospel is laid back out for believers in 1 Cor 15. You are corrupting minds from the simplicity that is in Christ (2 Cor 11:3-4).
The gospel Paul preached that the Corinthians believed, received and stood in (if they wouldn’t listen to those who said there was no resurrection) was that Christ died for their sins as the Scriptures foretold, and He was buried and rose again the third day also as prophesied. It was witnessed by the disciples, and 500 at one time along with others including Paul. All the apostles preached this gospel, and all of them believed it.
1 Cor 1:17-18 and Romans 1:16-17 says the gospel is the Power of God unto salvation. Jesus also thanks His Father that He revealed these things unto babes. Some people try to complicate and burden the gospel. We don’t/won’t bear with that here.
If you want to debate, it will have to be elsewhere. Demons are not offered salvation. Works meet for repentance is doing worthy works after we believe as we should (Titus 3:8), not to prove we are saved, but to demonstrate to others that we know and love Him.
Hopefully you’ll get into the Word and out of religious traditions of men.
Hi Holly,
I do “believe” you are right. ( : Thank you. I don’t think Jesus would say “believe and be saved” in the verse right before and then use the word believe right after and not mean saved. I’m guessing their belief went into a dormant stage; hence, “for a while” but if it was belief, then it will stick with them till the end. Do you know any churches in the Dallas area that teach like this? My pastor just this Sunday said quote you must “Turn around” “Do a 180” for salvation. It just didn’t sit right. I’ve been going there for almost 20 years and never heard it said that way. Lordship salvation is creeping up everywhere. This is NOT the gospel by which I was saved as a kid. I was taught grace and grace alone when I was saved. It’s this over stressed repentance thing that really gets me. I don’t even remember the word repent when I was saved. Belief IS repentance… Amen.
In Christ,
Brad
Brad, the Bible says soil 2 believers believe for a while. It does not say their belief goes dormant. I wouldn’t rule out someone’s belief going dormant, but the Bible says that if people STOP believing they are still saved. That includes someone who quits believing and never comes back around in this life.
I would invite you to listen to the sermon by Dr. Thomas Cucuzza, linked below.
http://www.sermonaudio.com/sermoninfo.asp?SID=73013123210
Hi Johninnc,
In the examples Holly stated, it appears that the belief goes dormant. They all come around later. Are you saying belief stops and then starts back up again? That doesn’t make sense. You are sealed with the holy spirit the moment you believe. You and Jesus become one. How can you not believe in yourself as a new creation? You are now that same belief incarnate. You either believe or you don’t. Where is a scripture showing somebody completely stopping their belief and then going to heaven? If Ananias and Sapphira did believe, that belief was always with them even if it was subconscious.
In Christ,
Brad
Brad, let me see if I can clarify. In the parable of the sower, the Bible says that those represented by soil 2 believe for a while. That means that after a while, they no longer believe. Scripture doesn’t say that after a while, they believe, but only subconsciously. The Bible never says anything about subconscious belief. I am not going to speculate and add that concept into scripture, when it is not there.
Yes, as believers, we are indwelled and sealed by the Holy Spirit. And yes, we are alive in Christ. But, neither of those things guarantees that our faith will endure, nor that it must endure to prove that we were saved in the first place.
You asked: Where is a scripture showing somebody completely stopping their belief and then going to heaven?
My answer: In the parable of the sower, and in 2 Timothy 2:13 (If we believe not, yet he abideth faithful: he cannot deny himself.)
Brad, I gave you a link to a sermon earlier that explains this at length. If you haven’t done so already, I would strongly recommend that you listed to the sermon. It would help explain a lot. I would prefer not to answer any more of your questions on this topic until after you have listened to the sermon.
The examples that Holly gave you were examples of believers whose faith faltered, but did not go away altogether.
The Bible also gives examples of people whose faith is “made shipwreck” and “overthrown.” This is something far different then temporary faltering.
1 Timothy 1:19: Holding faith, and a good conscience; which some having put away concerning faith have made shipwreck:
2 Timothy 2:18: Who concerning the truth have erred, saying that the resurrection is past already; and overthrow the faith of some.
You said: If Ananias and Sapphira did believe, that belief was always with them even if it was subconscious.
My comment: Ananias and Sapphira were saved. The Bible never says they stopped believing.
From your comments that I have read so far, it seems that you have been exposed to a lot of Lordship “salvation” teaching that implies that people who do not persevere in faith and good works were probably never saved in the first place – even when the Bible clearly identifies them as believers.
I know it is hard to put bad teaching behind, but I would encourage you to go with scripture, even when it doesn’t line up with what we’ve been taught.
You might like the article entitled “Lordship Salvation: Looking for Evidence While Denying Proof.” It is linked below:
http://expreacherman.com/2014/09/03/lordship-salvation-looking-for-evidence-while-denying-proof/
John,
I’ve listened to the sermon, but I already agreed with what the pastor said. My question was how does a believer “Stop” believing? The fact that they believed “For a while” and then fell away might not be an implication of complete stopping of belief. You said “I am not going to speculate and add that concept into scripture” regarding subconscious belief, but you add to scripture that they do completely “STOP.” That is not definite in the text by any means. Also, you say you are completely convinced that they have “Stopped” yet you say you can’t rule out belief being dormant? “Overthrown” and “Shipwreck” can also imply “faith” being temporarily “Stopped” but not completely stopped. We all have “lack” of faith at times. And, in 2 Timothy 2:13 where does it say belief has stopped? This “faithlessness” could be temporary / dormant as well. He lives in us; He is our faith! That faith can’t stop! You have yet to show me a scripture where belief has stopped yet somebody is still saved. I don’t think belief can “Stop.” It is eternally perpetual once you receive the Holy Spirit.
In Christ,
Brad
Brad, I haven’t added to scripture. Scripture says they believe for a while.
You asked: How do they stop believing?
My comment: it could be for any number of reasons. The Bible mentions tribulation and persecution (Matthew), affliction and persecution (Mark), and temptation (Luke).
Persecution can come in a number of forms, including being ostracized by groups for not adopting their works for salvation beliefs.
IF you think this parable teaches that the faith is always there, so be it. But, there is a potential problem with that thinking. It comes down to “a true Christian will…” In this case, the sentence would be finished with “… have his faith endure.”
What if the person’s faith faltered right before he died?
Jesus is the object of our faith. He is not our faith.
I guess you and I will have to agree to disagree on this topic.
Thanks. John
John,
Everything was making sense, then you threw this strange curve ball. I think you are stuck on catch phrases like “A true Christian will.” No, a Christian Does have the Holy Spirit, and that can’t be stopped. How can you have the Holy Spirit without having some kind of underlying belief? Impossible.
In Christ,
Brad
Brad, I’m not trying to confuse you. I’m sorry if I have.
The Holy Spirit immediately and permanently indwells someone the moment they believe in Jesus as Savior.
However, a person who has believed in Christ as Savior may stop believing. The Bible clearly says this. Such a person remains indwelled and sealed by the Holy Spirit, and has eternal life that can never be lost or forfeited.
I hope this makes my position perfectly clear, as we (you and I) won’t continue to rehash it.
Holly and John,
I just wanted to apologize for my rude comments. I didn’t understand why Holly hadn’t replied back and why John was the only one to comment. I now know why. I have learned a lot from you blog and you are in my prayers.
Psalm 34:17 – When the righteous cry for help, the LORD hears and delivers them out of all their troubles.
In Christ,
Brad
Well.. I went out with the way of the master today, and I had my own tracts with just the gospel message on it. One of the leaders before had told me that would be fine if I still came out with the group, and I had even emailed him my tract. When I got there today, I handed them my tract, and one of the leaders said “Very professionally done,” but I started to get a different story. I spent good money on these tracts. I asked the co leader lady what she thought repent meant, and she said “Turn around.” I said no; it’s a change of mind not a change of behavior. Then, she said well.. works will follow if somebody is saved yadda, yadda, yadda, and I said, “So, you are saying works are required after salvation?” Then, she said well.. you just can’t come out with us! She then said to give her a hug, and I said sorry I’m not going to give you a hug in the spirit of works for salvation. As I left the park, two of my friends were standing there, and I was explaining to them why I was leaving, and she came after me like a pit bull. lol I told them if they thought I was a tare in the wheat, then why don’t they just let me do my thing and let Jesus sort it out. They wouldn’t have it. That let me know who might be the tares. So, me and my dog are going to go hand out true gospel tracts. ( : If I hadn’t have found this site, I wouldn’t have known how to explain myself. Thank You.
Brad, I remember the first time one turned on me. Nice older lady. This was not done publicly but behind the scenes with many. I remember being kind of shocked at the gossip and never really knowing why so many who claimed the name of Christ had rejected me without a word.
The next time, it was someone I had helped quite a lot, even while my husband was in ICU. She turned on me with viciousness that surprised me. I remember talking to the Lord about how I had done nothing but good to her, been kind to her, so why had she done and said all these things to me. It came to me so clearly. All Jesus had ever done is spoken the truth, He came to give His life in their place, and they were beyond vicious, they wanted to murder Him. Humiliate Him, they hated Him, persecuted Him, and they will us too.
So we contend earnestly for the faith, but we do it in such a way, that our opponent might be ashamed. If we use the Word, we can’t go wrong. And we need to keep replenishing ourselves and study with His approval in mind. We need to get built up and washed in His Word. Proverbs 22:17-21 is one I love. He teaches us, and we’ll know the certainty of His Word of truth.
Anyways, keep sticking with the sound men, prove all things by His Word. And for myself I try to remember James 1:19 when dealing with these people, in case they are someone we might pull from the fire, listening and not being quick to speak unless we have His Word fitted on our lips (back to Pr 22). Galatians 2:4-5 also when they are teachers of the law, along with Titus 1:12-14. We withstand these people to their face before all. I wish I had the courage/time to do that years ago in San Francisco when a street preacher was yelling about repent from sin through a megaphone on a popular corner, but I don’t think I’d hesitate again (Lord willing).
Keep staying in His Word (Luke 10:38-42). In Christ.
Thank you for the scriptures Holly and the encouragement. I found out they were gossiping about me as well. It seems they are working so hard to prove their salvation to themselves. I’m learning to let go of that, but I fall into the trap from time to time. You remain in my prayers. In Christ, Brad
A letter I wrote to Larry Wessels who is a Christian Debater on you tube etc…
Hi Larry,
My name is Brad, and I recently viewed a video of you and Rob Zins in reference to GES. I’m not a fan of GES, but I do believe in salvation by grace alone and that fruit production isn’t a must after salvation. When Rob said a believer must bear fruit if he is really saved, then he must know how much fruit is to be produced if a believer is to be 100% secure about their salvation. He said “Don’t ask me how much,” but that it has to be there. That is a cop out.
1 John 5:13 states that we can know for sure that we are saved. Now don’t get me wrong, fruit should be there in abundance, but that is not always the case. Rob erroneously stated that GES believes that all soils are saved in the parable of the sower, but that isn’t what they believe. They believe of course that soil 1 is not saved, because it specifically says they are not. However, the three other soils are varying levels of believer’s service with the 4th soil being optimal.
All three gospel accounts state soil 2 either “received” or even “believed” the word. John 1:12 states “But as many as received him, to them gave he power to become the sons of God, even to them that believe on his name.” Did soil 2 not believe and “receive” in ALL three gospel accounts? Then, they are saved in soil 2 according to all three gospels, and they never bore fruit.
In Soil 3, it specifically states fruit started to be produced and it is in fact present, so they are a bit more productive than soil 2. And of course, soil 4 is the optimal believer. I don’t believe that any saved person technically will have absolutely no fruit. That’s a pure hypothetical . Jesus said even if you give a cup of cold water you will not lose your reward. I feel every believer has done something good after he is saved, but sin is no longer the issue. It is all on the cross.
Romans 4:5 states “But to him that worketh not, but believeth on him that justifieth the ungodly, his faith is counted for righteousness.” I don’t see how you and Rob feel works must be present in the believer’s life. James ch 2 can’t be referring to salvation, because Romans 4:2 says “For if Abraham were justified by works, he hath whereof to glory; but not before God.”
The only thing that proves my salvation is His work not mine, and He didn’t need my help. Again, if fruit “Must” be present, then you are unequivocally saying that fruit proves salvation, and it does Not. This is false doctrine, and God’s grace is far more reaching than you and Rob are letting people know.
In Christ,
Brad
Hi Holly,
I haven’t stopped by here in a while, but I haven’t stopped praying. I’m so glad I found these grace blogs. I was listening to one of Ray Comfort’s videos, and he is definitely in the John MacArthur camp. I emailed living waters about some things, and they sent me all these John MacArthur links. The slickest thing about these two is how they twist Eph 2:8-9 to make faith the gift instead of salvation by grace. When they do that, it immediately defaults to predestination, because only certain people can now get this gift. “Selection election” And, they believe repentance is a gift as well. Strange… I’ve always been a grace believer; I just didn’t know it was called “Free grace.” I still don’t care for labels. When I was ten years old, the true gospel made sense to me, and I believed it. I didn’t even know what repent was. I don’t think I even heard about it until a lot later in life. Anyway, if you go to this video Ray says this verbatim “We know that repentance is God given and faith is a gift.” I wonder how many people are so special as to get these “Gifts.” This isn’t just L/S.. this is just nuts. I’m sure he makes a lot of money on his “Ministries.” Will the man who screams repent ever repent? (change his mind) I pray that he does. The love of money is a strong deterrent though.
(link removed by administrator)
In Christ,
Brad
Hi Holly,
I had a quick question? Do you believe that “Whosoever” of John 3:16 means that “Whosoever” will have a choice to receive the gospel for eternal life? Meaning everybody will have a choice to either accept or reject Christ for eternal salvation? I believe in unlimited atonement and that everybody will somehow have a choice. Why would Jesus die for everybody if He knew ultimately they would never have the choice to believe? That doesn’t seem fair. Some people won’t be lucky enough to receive the gospel message? I don’t believe that. God is fair and God is Just. That would be like a dad telling a son I bought you a new car (atonement), but the DMV has shut down for good, so you will never get to drive it. And, the the dad knew the DMV was going to shut down. but he bought the car for him anyway. That makes NO sense.
Brad
I think it’s answered in Scriptures, Psalm 19 tells us:
1 The heavens declare the glory of God; and the firmament sheweth his handywork. 2 Day unto day uttereth speech, and night unto night sheweth knowledge. 3 There is no speech nor language, where their voice is not heard. 4 Their line is gone out through all the earth, and their words to the end of the world. In them hath he set a tabernacle for the sun, 5 which is as a bridegroom coming out of his chamber, and rejoiceth as a strong man to run a race. 6 His going forth is from the end of the heaven, and his circuit unto the ends of it: and there is nothing hid from the heat thereof.
And most specifically this one in Romans 1.
18 For the wrath of God is revealed from heaven against all ungodliness and unrighteousness of men, who hold the truth in unrighteousness; 19 because that which may be known of God is manifest in them; for God hath shewed it unto them. 20 For the invisible things of him from the creation of the world are clearly seen, being understood by the things that are made, even his eternal power and Godhead; so that they are without excuse: 21 because that, when they knew God, they glorified him not as God, neither were thankful; but became vain in their imaginations, and their foolish heart was darkened.
And also this passage in Acts 17 shows us He gives us the best chances by where/when He places us, He desires we seek Him:
26 and hath made of one blood all nations of men for to dwell on all the face of the earth, and hath determined the times before appointed, and the bounds of their habitation; 27 that they should seek the Lord, if haply they might feel after him, and find him, though he be not far from every one of us:
9 And I say unto you, Ask, and it shall be given you; seek, and ye shall find; knock, and it shall be opened unto you. 10 For every one that asketh receiveth; and he that seeketh findeth; and to him that knocketh it shall be opened. Luke 11:9-10
And I, if I be lifted up from the earth, will draw all men unto me. John 12:32
I don’t try to figure out the ‘why’ or ‘how’ but I take Him at His Word. I think on Zane Hodges and my friend’s recent article regarding Hodge’s speculation on a man on a desert island. Those kinds of speculations need to be answered with God’s Word, not man’s thought process, His ways and thought’s being above ours. Anyways, this is the article I am referencing, Beware of the Crossless gospel by Jim Floyd
Thank You Holly,
Those scriptures really helped. I agree. I don’t believe you and Jim hold the same position, but that’s ok I believe. It’s not a L/S vs Grace issue. Both L/S and Grace people have different opinions on this. If Jesus draws “All” men He means “All” men.
In Christ,
Brad
Hi Brad, I think Jim and I are very close in opinions on this, one thing I know about Jim, is he defers to Scripture and doesn’t think of men beyond what is written. I think that is a wise stance for any of us, when people start speculating about different scenarios, and in their own wisdom they want to come up with an answer using white space theology. I don’t profess to be a scholar, but I do want to try to find an answer in His Word alone, and leave the speculations to those who don’t seem to tremble at His Word like they should (Isaiah 66:2).
I would rather let the Scriptures speak if you know what I mean. May we all defer to His Word always. In Him, Holly
Hi Holly,
To say that any Christian doesn’t “Seem” to tremble at God’s word is nothing but speculative. With such a harsh speculative opinion, it should be kept to yourself.
In Christ,
Brad
I was speaking of the speculations that Zane Hodges and Bob Wilkins bring up in their desert island scenario. Sorry if it offended you, and you misread my motives to be harsh. (John 7:24). I am not speculating however about the gospel, but at them going beyond what is written.
The Word tells us how will we believe if we have not heard and there is not a preacher. The Bible also tells us God draws all men, so all have a chance. If they seek Him they will find Him the Word says. Beyond that, The Gospel is the power of God unto salvation, and I don’t want to hypothesize on the ‘what if’s’ that are not covered in Scripture. What are these men’s motives? I don’t know, I am to judge with a righteous judgment and not according to the appearance. So I look at their doctrine, hold it up to the Word, and that is where I come up with my judgment that they do not appear to have had enough respect for God’s Word. Have I fallen in that area? Yes. But it is still to my shame as well as theirs.
I believe these to be foolish arguments, that subvert the hearers, so we won’t be having any that we don’t answer with Scripture. In Jesus Christ eternally.
PS – I am not here to appear to be right, but I am only here (on my blog) to prayerfully rightly divide His Word of truth and let the Word speak, trusting in its power.
John 3:16
“For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.”
Titus 2:11
“For the grace of God that brings salvation has appeared to all men,”
Romans 10:18
“But I say, Have they not heard? Yes verily, their sound went into all the earth, and their words unto the ends of the world.”
Psalm 19:3-4
“There is no speech nor language, where their voice is not heard. Their line is gone out through all the earth, and their words to the end of the world. In them hath he set a tabernacle for the sun,”
I googled what do people think of ray comfort and came across your site. Something just doesn’t sit right with me. In one of rays videos he said we have to stop telling people that Jesus love you. He is in their face about sin immediately and in a lot of his videos it rote. He needs to listen to people more. There is nothing wrong with saying Jesus love you, he laid down his life for us, for our sins. It’s speaking love in truth together.
Hi Kim, thanks for commenting. You are so right. Those in error, like Ray Comfort, might sound right in the beginning, but they will generally make their error known if people are checking the Word to see if what they are saying is true (Acts 17:11; 1 Thess 5:21). Those that are reformed do not believe Jesus loves the world, but that He only loves those He chose for salvation. The teaching of the turning from sin proves to them who is really saved.
Their gospel is not good news, it is man-centered, even though they claim to speak for His glory. Jesus gave His life for us in great love (John 15:13), commending His love for us by dying for us while we were yet sinners (Rom 5:6-8). False teachers like Ray Comfort demand the human sacrifice in order to pay for sins instead of believing that Christ did it all. It’s very sad for them and those they mislead. Their program is very large, very clever with its tracts and videos, and makes a bit of money, but it is not the gospel.
Hope to see you again, if not here, in the air. God bless you, Holly
I have three primary issues with this article. There are more things I take issue with such as the distinct hint of five point Calvinist doctrine and subsequently assuming ones own conclusion in this article. Furthermore, the apparent degrading tone and name calling used by the writer is something I believe should also be pointed out and called into question. But for the sake of time, i will leave those aside for now and address these short exemplary few in detail.
First, the writer of this article makes the claim that there is no command given in the bible to repent of and “turn from ones sin for salvation.” Matthew 3:1-2 “In those days came John the Baptist, preaching in the wilderness of Judaea, And saying, Repent ye: for the kingdom of heaven is at hand.” Acts 2:38 “Then Peter said unto them, Repent, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins, and ye shall receive the gift of the Holy Ghost.” The writer of this article continues and uses Numbers 5:6-7 to prove his point. ” Speak unto the children of Israel, When a man or woman shall commit any sin that men commit, to do a trespass against the Lord, and that person be guilty;Then they shall confess their sin which they have done: and he shall recompense his trespass with the principal thereof, and add unto it the fifth part thereof, and give it unto him against whom he hath trespassed.” I fail to see how this proves that Ray comforts message of repentance is unbiblical?
Secondly, the writer of this article makes the claim, ” Lastly, it is impossible for an unregenerate person to “turn from his (or her) sins” (at least to God’s perfect satisfaction) before they are saved. ” I have a few questions and a response to this statement. First, if it is impossible for an unsaved or unregenerate person to turn from their sin to Gods perfect satisfaction, are you saying that a regenerate person “can” turn from their sins to God’s perfect satisfaction? Are Christians perfect? Furthermore, is unregenerate and unsaved the same thing? Please define what you mean by unregenerate and unsaved?
Third and finally, the writer is in essence making the claim that a person must be saved before he repents of his sin. However, this is not the order in which the scripture lists repentance or belief and salvation. Mark 16:16 “He that believeth and is baptized shall be saved; but he that believeth not shall be damned.” 2 Corinthians 7:10 “For godly sorrow worketh repentance to salvation not to be repented of: but the sorrow of the world worketh death.” We see further examples of this in passages such as the following, Genesis 15:6, Luke 8:12, John 1:12, John 3:16 and many others.
Roberta, I apologize I haven’t seen your comment to date. I don’t come here daily, but these articles are to inform, and not for the sake of argument from another blog (which I am not including on my site).
I can always do better, so I’ll re-read and see if I can detect degrading tone, but I do not believe there is any name-calling (unless you call me requalifying lordship as load-ship name-calling.).
The verses you gave still do not say (as you claim) ‘repent from sin’. If you are going to teach, you first need to understand the meaning of repentance. It does not equal = turn from sin. Maybe you would consider this article on the meaning of repentance.
We also have a series here on Redeeming Moments on each and every incident of the meaning repent. Please consider reading them, but don’t change the original meaning of repent because religious men/women do.
Regarding Numbers 5:6-7 or Jonah 3:9-10, etc., what it proves are two things. ‘Ray Comfort’s message’ is not teaching Biblical repentance, but the Roman Catholic idea of doing penance or being penitent. It’s really important for us to be clear on what repent/repentance means as well as saved/salvation. It’s good to ask saved from what? Who is repenting? What is the object of their repentance? What is the consequence of their repentance? Simply meta (change/after) noia (mind/thinking) is the meaning of repent. We then ask what are we thinking differently regarding?
On your question of the unregenerate turning from sin to God’s perfect satisfaction.
Remember we’re speaking in terms of being saved from the penalty of sin, and His requirement is no sin in order to enter heaven (Rev 21:7). So it’s apples to oranges to attempt to contrast it to whether a believer turns from sin which has nothing to do with receiving eternal life. Yes, an unregenerated by the Holy Spirit person is unsaved, but that is not my definition but His Words (Titus 3:4-7).
On your third statement, I’d have to question your summation again. It does not say in Mark 16:16, the one who repents of his sins shall not be damned, but ‘he that believeth shall not be damned’.
And it is of the utmost importance to understand context. When you used 2 Cor 7:10 as your example in tandem with the Mark 16 passage, I could see you were maybe missing context. This is not speaking to nonbelievers being saved from hell, but believers being saved/delivered from consequences of their sin.
I hope this will help you, but unless you really want to know the true meaning of repentance, you’ll continue to teach a gospel of works and I would hope you would not want that.
Is there an updated link to the article on the meaning of repent/repentance? I would like to access that and cannot. (It may be an issue on my end). I’m getting an error message when I click on it. The other links I’ve tried on the site are working. Thank you!
On Redeeming Moments itself Kat? Or on Clear Gospel?
I notice there were several links. We have one here to a series by Ron Shea. On the Ray Comfort Article there was a pdf file, a couple of ‘Understanding Repentance’ sermons and something else. Could you be more specific on which one?
thanks! Great to see you!
Kat, don’t know if you every saw my question. Did you mean this?
https://redeemingmoments.com/2014/09/03/repentance-and-salvation-in-scripture/
I see your point. I believe that we are saved by grace.its a gift.we receive this gift by accepting Christ.being born again means to have a relationship with Christ.repent means to change .we should turn from sin but to be sinless is impossible.I pray everyday and ask forgiveness everyday.but in my weakness I still sin.so does that mean that I am not saved?
Thomas, when we believed on Christ, we became known as “in Christ Jesus”. There is no condemnation for us. But many things happened at that moment we believed, and they were permanent. One is our sanctification in His sight. He took away our sin, and forgave us and reconciled us to the father. By one offering, we were perfected forever, our lawless deeds forgiven, our sins are covered. Sin is no longer imputed to us but Christ righteousness is. It’s hard to comprehend, but we can believe it as He has told us in His Word. We were forgiven for ALL, and our sins taken away.
But in the flesh, we still struggle because as we see in Romans 7, the perplexity between not practicing what we will to do, but the things we hate, we find ourself doing. But is it no longer us (the inner man) that does it, but sin that dwells in us. Confessing our sins is for fellowship with the Lord, (1 John 1) and is instantaneous. He is the one who is faithful and just to forgive us and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness. Yes, we are told, evil is still present in our flesh, sin still dwells in us.
20 Now if I do what I will not to do, it is no longer I who do it, but sin that dwells in me.
21 I find then a law, that evil is present with me, the one who wills to do good.
22 For I delight in the law of God according to the inward man.
23 But I see another law in my members, warring against the law of my mind, and bringing me into captivity to the law of sin which is in my members.
24 O wretched man that I am! Who will deliver me from this body of death?
25 I thank God—through Jesus Christ our Lord! So then, with the mind I myself serve the law of God, but with the flesh the law of sin. Rom 7:21-25
We no longer sin in the new man, our flesh is corruptible and will not inherit the kingdom, we will leave it behind until the day He resurrects it from the dead and makes it new. Our new man is born of incorruptible seed and does not sin. We do sin every day, and the Holy Spirit empowers us to turn from sin. But like a couple of my friends say (John and Jim), we need to cooperate. Jesus prayed in advance for you to be sanctified by the truth, His Word is truth (Jn 17:17). If we want to do better in the sinning department, it helps to not only hide His Word in our heart, but to take heed to it (Ps 119:9-11). Spend some time with Him each day, hearing His Word, committing some to memory, studying it, searching it. His Word will lighten up our path and begin to give us wisdom and knowledge and understanding of Him. Remember in Rom 2:4, it is His goodness, forbearance and longsuffering that led to our repentance (change of mind). So spend time getting to know Him, talking to Him, reading the Word He wrote in advance for your learning (Rom 15:4-5).
And you, being dead in your trespasses and the uncircumcision of your flesh, He has made alive together with Him, having forgiven you all trespasses, having wiped out the handwriting of requirements that was against us, which was contrary to us. And He has taken it out of the way, having nailed it to the cross. Col 2:14-15
We will sin to the day we die, and are given, new, sinless bodies. Our new man will not sin from the day we received Him by belief on Him. Hope that helped, welcome, glad you dropped by.
God bless you.
You might like this link Thomas, these are Bible verses on some of the things that happen when we believe.
http://expreacherman.com/36-amazing-things/
You might also like to refresh yourself, shod your feet (Eph 6) in His gospel, these are verses on our justification.
http://expreacherman.com/believers-justification/
Holly,
there was no reply button for Brad and his comment? a snipet for Brad.
also about falling away. 2 Tim 2 tells us that even if ones faith is overthrown, they are still sealed.
Heb 6 – is actually an ETERNAL SECURITY passage telling us that it is impossible to renew someone AGAIN. meaning, they are still saved.
2 Tim 2 – Nevertheless, having THIS SEAL, the Lord knoweth them that are his.
blessings
Hi Preston,
Thank You… I’ve been commenting for a while, so the reply button is way up there lol. Thank you for your response. I’ve never been completely clear on Heb 6:6, but somebody explained to me that they were Jews who didn’t really believe. It just sounded like a good idea to them at first, but they went back to the law. They tasted the goodness of God but still didn’t believe. But, maybe you are right. Either way, belief is belief, and if they did in fact believe, then they are saved.
In Christ,
Brad
Great article. Explains it well. Nowhere does the Bible say what Comfort says. He adds words into the gospel, making it impossible for a lost person to know the true way of salvation and eternal life.
The “Divine Law”? Ray, where does it say that in the gospel? In what chapter in the Bible is that found?
Good question Angela,
Why was the law not preached at Pentecost? People miss that we don’t to sit there and recite the 10 commandments, these people knew they had seen these miracles and it attested who Jesus was, yet they by their own wicked hands, crucified Him. They knew what they did, Peter was bold to speak of what they personally did in rejecting Him.
Philip should have preached law to the Eunuch then, yet instead, he expounded upon Isaiah’s report, and that this was Jesus….
Peter should have preached law to the poor Gentile Cornelius so he would know he was sinner, shouldn’t he have?
Paul and Silas should have preached the law to the jailer then. It goes on and on. We are now judged by the law of liberty. People know they do wrong, they may think they are good enough, but a recitation of the 10 commandments and a technique with the microphone is not the way.
Thomas, the gospel is the death, burial and resurrection of the Lord Jesus Christ, when you believe in the gospel you get eternal life because you have believed in the only one who can justify you before the Father in heaven, Jesus Christ.
Romans 4:5 states that whoever believes in Him (Jesus Christ) has been justified that means in the eyes of God you are no longer a sinner by position, but by practice you still sin just like I do and every other christian does, because we live in a body of sin Romans 7:14-25. and a believer who persists in sin will end up with no rewards 1 Corinthians 3:15 and may even have to endure chastening from the Lord just like an earthly father will chasten a disobedient child. so do not doubt your salvation for you are eternally secure.
Thomas,
What every person needs to know, especially new converts is that when we have faith in Jesus we receive forgiveness of sins (Acts 26 v 18, Acts 13 v 38, 2Corinthians 5 v 19, Colossians 2 v 13, 1 John 2 v 12, Ephesians 1 v 7, Ephesians 4 v 32), all our sins are forgiven and blotted out, we are a brand new creature.
I used to ask God everyday to forgive me of my sins until I realised that it was praying in unbelief. Don’t ask God to forgive you of your sins, He has already done that, Instead thank Him that He has forgiven you of your sins. It is from knowing our position that we get the victory.
Reblogged this on Stand For the Faith and commented:
Do not be fooled by Ray Comfort and his gospel. For more please consider a recent blog post for Holly Garcia at Redeemingmoments.com
Thank you Jim, I hope to add here, or do a second part, maybe on his “Evidence” Bible. I hope Ray Comfort sees the errors of his teaching Lord willing.
Hi Holly, I just want you to know that I believe God led me to your blog (in particular, the post/study on the Law with all the verses) as an answer to prayer for clarity regarding all of this confusion I’ve had from being involved with a Calvinist/LS church.
My family has just walked away from this ‘Macarthuresque’ / Lordship Salvation church (ironically called “Grace” haha!) and this is my testimony about how this doctrine changes followers of Christ into legalistic fruit inspectors.
I came to simple faith in Christ at 14 (from a non-Christian home). I spent the first 4 years at a Pentecostal megachurch in Sydney which shall go unnamed.
I devoured my bible, told everyone about my precious Savior Jesus and what he did for me and them.
Then religion got a hold of me. I spent the next 10 years in and out of “fundamentalist baptist” churches, sorting out really important matters such as dress, hair length, music choices etc etc.
Once I’d worked through all that I was a right little Pharisee. (I cringe now when I look back and think of all the witnesses of my little legalism stage!).
At 27 I married a beautiful man who comes from an “Anabaptist” simple Christian background where the bible is read and there is no nonsense.
Grace ABOUNDS and wisdom is evident.
We started going to this Lordship Salvation church and it didn’t take long for me to start analysing my husband’s behaviour, and that of others there also.
Of course, I was the most “spiritual” person in the place… and it was just so terribly sad to see all these pathetic “professors” in the church but probably not “right with God”.
I say this in jest.
I would constantly wonder why it seemed no one was “saved”, as their behaviour wasn’t as I thought it should be.
Then I decided to “test everything”.
I asked the question, “What if Lordship Salvation, Calvinism etc is wrong?”.
I started to pray.
I started to read my bible without the lense of LS/C on.
I started to read Charles Bing’s work on LS.
I started to use Blue Letter Bible and search for words like “believe” and “repent” and check what “Repent” means in the Greek.
Then it started to click.
We left the church and are now at home.
There is much freedom.
So much freedom.
PRO: Watching Ray and Kirk proclaim their message boldly encourages me to do the same.
CON: Their message needs to be modified to drop the “forsake your sins”, “turn from your sins” and instead they need to preach the GOOD NEWS. I see their message as one which puts a massive stumbling block in front of the unbeliever. Imagine if they preached the simplicity of faith in Christ as the Savior (who IS Lord whether we make him Lord or not!), encouraging people listening to simply call on His name for salvation!
Ugh.
This blog is a blessing Holly.
I look forward to reading more.
Sorry for the long post. xx
Behold a Son, (I loved the long post)..
I want you to also know that I prayed for the blog to be put up if it would help just one person. It blessed me immensely to see your post on Jack’s site saying it was for you, and I thanked the Lord for His goodness to us.
I am with you, I am amazed that load-ship teachers use the word Grace, yet have the audacity to steal Bonhoeffer’s derisive comment, (cheap grace), yet he promotes works with no assurance of salvation.
Your story is similar to mine, although I came from a Christian home with a sound Bible background. When I first started exploring other churches, one was a Baptist church with a most definite Lordship bent, as well as the charismatic church I tried after. I wanted to have a closer relationship, and it was as close as the adornment I carried with me (my Bible). But I had gotten into the habit of picking and choosing verses and passages and misapplying some, and misunderstanding some. Not using context, nor truly studying…
Funny about the fruit inspecting. The very people who fruit inspected others to figure out whether they were saved or not, were the very people who chastised me for knowing the fruits of the false prophets and speaking about it. I judge only the doctrine, not the person.
You made me smile with the ‘right little Pharisee’… I probably was too, thought I was pretty good… and wonder about my legalism them. Now, I am called Pharisee more often than I can count on two hands 🙂 But now I know the difference between what a Pharisee is, and what someone who loves the Word, and contends for the faith once delivered.
Such a blessing to read your testimony.. I do want to let you know, blueletterbible is now going the way of reformed in many areas. Including their definition now of repent. Maybe a couple of years ago, I saw them add F.F. Bruce’s addition to the meaning of ‘repent’. I highly recommend Thomas Cucuzza at northland.com, he has under resources a repentance article. So does cleargospel.org. Although Ron is revamping his site. I also recommend Hank Lindstrom on Bibleline, he does a series I’ll go get the links for.
I will share your Pro’s and Con’s within the body of the article, thank you 🙂
In Christ’s love, I pray the Lord will continue to guard your heart and mind, and grow you in the Word of His grace.
Wow, you’ve had a fun journey too! Ahhh God is so patient with us. haha.
Re: BLB you wrote, “Maybe a couple of years ago, I saw them add F.F. Bruce’s addition to the meaning of ‘repent’. I highly recommend Thomas Cucuzza at northland.com, he has under resources a repentance article.”
I noticed this recently too and I’m so glad you’ve reminded me. A red flag appeared in my mind and now you’ve confirmed it.
I forwarded the Cucuzza doc. to an elderly friend of mine and he said it’s one of the clearest docs on Repentance he’s ever read. He’s forwarded it on to many people. What a blessing.
When you take a step back from it all you really end up scratching your head and thinking, “What was that all about?!”.
Thanks for your prayers. God is good.
I meant to provide those links, seems like I get distracted at times in life, all too often 🙂
I do know what you mean, assuming you mean when you step back and think on all the Lord has done, and how He has directed our steps in such goodness. I sure love Him.
Here are a few by Hank Lindstrom, who is with the Lord now.
Repentance Word Study:
http://www.biblelineministries.org/av/videoarchive/vidsearch.php3?action=full&mainkey=2007-09-30-Sunday_Sermon.wmv
Wrong repentance – No Salvation
http://www.biblelineministries.org/av/videoarchive/vidsearch.php3?action=full&mainkey=2007-10-07-Sunday_Sermon.wmv
Repentance: Acknowledging the truth.
http://www.biblelineministries.org/av/videoarchive/vidsearch.php3?action=full&mainkey=2007-10-14-Sunday_Sermon.wmv
I also like this one very much, Ron is re-doing his site right now, it’s old, but the information is very good…
http://old.cleargospel.org/topics.php?t_id=27
You had many good points here. But the prime one for myself was your putting John 6:44 in the context of John 12:32. That was very good. Very very good.
False teachers of all stripes often isolate one verse and make doctrine of it.
Putting those isolated verses back into the context of the whole counsel of God’s Word is the task of those who seek the truth of God’s Word. It is a much more useful work than playing “dueling Scripture”–which only serves to promote the lie that God is the author of confusion.
Very nice job.
Thank you Jeremiah, I wish that I had more of a talent in writing and organization.
One thing the Lord has given me is a love for His Word, which is treasure to me (Ps 119:140,162). I answered some of these things in another article, (which I intend to expand further Lord willing) because of all those who teach ‘faith’ is the gift given in Eph 2:8-9. So we must be ‘given faith’ in order to be saved, we must be chosen for salvation in order to be saved. So what must you do to be saved according to their doctrine? The best I’ve seen them come up with is “pray for faith”.
But I believe the Bible teaches us much more than that, and I appreciate what you say, it is necessary that we do not shun to declare the whole counsel of God and somehow have the blood of men on our heads. Forgive us Lord where we have every lightly handled Your Word and not been diligent with it….
Anyways, here is the other article, thank you again for your kind comments
https://redeemingmoments.com/2014/02/27/1457/
Hi Jeremiah, I would like to ask you what’s your stand on the lordship salvation controversary, are you free grace or lordship salvation? I have always wanted to ask you guys for a long time
Hi Greg, not sure who Jeremiah is more than a commenter here. Could you fill me in?
As for all of us here, we are against the false doctrine of lordship (or as I prefer to say loadship). I used to use the term Free Grace, but prefer to say ‘grace-based’. In Christ, Holly
I have a question for the author of this blog: It is wrong to make a commitment to obedience a requirement for salvation. Ok, got it. My question is, “obedience to what?” What’s the standard?
Hi Paul (that was my little brother’s name…) thank you for commenting.
We certainly might have that attitude and maybe even that desire (although I doubt is as non-believers, unrighteous, ungodly sinners without strength). But the only obedience we are required to do, is obey the gospel, which is shown in Rom 10:14-17. Obeying the Gospel means to believe Isaiah’s report (seen in Isaiah 53) and that is to believe who the Messiah is, and what He did for us in our place.
We believe (put our confidence in) in the truth. That truth is declared in 1 Cor 15, it is that Christ died for sinners, that He was buried and that He rose again as we that have believed (and been saved by that belief), will also. It was the same gospel we see that all the apostles preached, and that they all believed, received, and were saved by. The same gospel they all stood in.
The difference between the law and the new covenant, is that the law points us to Christ, and never made anyone righteous. The point of the law was to shown sin, and the inability and actually impossibility of people to be able to obey the law. Break one, break them all. There has been a change of law (including the 10 commandments) and so of necessity, there has been a change of priesthood (Heb 7:12-13).
So no, obedience, or commitment to obedience cannot be a requirement for salvation. After we are saved, we need to abide in the Lord, and abide in His Word if we want to have fruit, and if we want to be disciples (students). We have the epistles written to the church that are exhortations and admonitions on how to live as a believer.
I hope that helps. In Christ, Holly
I think what people may not realize, is believers SHOULD maintain good works (Titus 3:8) and there is a reason. Our testimony, our manner of speech, our walk in life, affects not only our lives and our future rewards, it affects the lives of other believers, our fellowship with God, and it most definitely can affect the lives of non-believers, so walk in wisdom redeeming the time…
So, we should obey, but obedience does not lead to life, correct?
Paul, it might be more helpful if you got what you are asking right out in the light.
I am thinking I made it clear there is one thing we can do. Obeyed the gospel = Believed upon the gospel (otherwise identified in Scripture as ‘the truth’). That is the only ‘obeying’ that leads to eternal life. As we can see in the life of the Church at Galatia, they had been bewitched, into thinking they could finish in the flesh, what had began in the Spirit. What did this cost them? Their salvation? No, not unless you think it’s not permanent and eternal. This cost them dearly in their walk, their fellowship with God and each other (see Gal 5) and it hindered the gospel, because of the hypocrisy of following after these Judaizers who were getting them to prove their justification by their works. (Sound familiar to the false prophets of Mat 7:15-22?)
Notice how the truth is set forth as the gospel.
O foolish Galatians, who hath bewitched you, that ye should not obey the truth, before whose eyes Jesus Christ hath been evidently set forth, crucified among you? This only would I learn of you, Received ye the Spirit by the works of the law, or by the hearing of faith? Are ye so foolish? having begun in the Spirit, are ye now made perfect by the flesh? Gal 3:1-3
We received the Spirit by faith.
Other than that, any works of the law cannot be applied to bringing about eternal life. It can be applied in our physical life, as hindering our fellowship with God, our prayers. Our fellowship with other believers. It keeps us from a sound pattern of speech, or walk, which hurts non believers. Does that help further explain, or were you wanting to make a point? If so, please feel free. In the name of Christ, Holly
Paul, While you ponder my answer, I’d like to ask you, if you’d identify what you believe you must do, before, during and after, in order to be given eternal life. Thank you, In Him, Holly
Eternal life is a free gift given when we are persuaded that Christ died for our sins and was resurrected on the third day. I agree, that’s the only obedience required for eternal life. Um, maybe I am not asking my question the right way, so let me pose the question this way: Is the law of the Spirit of life (Romans 8:2) a law that Christians obey, or is it something the Holy Spirit does for us 100%? OR, is it a law that the Holy Spirit helps us obey, OR, is it not really a law, but something else?
Forgive me Paul, it could be me too. A little under the weather.
I believe that our mind serves that law, also mentioned as the ‘law of God’ in the previous chapter. So the only thing that is automatic is that are mind, our new man, does not sin. But in the flesh we still serve the law of sin.
I believe the Bible teaches two natures, and it’s important to cooperate in our walk with Him for many reasons which I actually plan (Lord willing) to write a little about next.
We need to cooperate by doing our part. Abiding in the Lord and His Word has many aspects to it, and as we do that, we grow in His grace, and in the knowledge of Him.
Somewhat like God drawing all men, many different ways, we still have our own response in becoming saved. Our practical or progressive sanctification (Christian walk growing in Him) is His will, but we see different growth patterns in believers. There is also our positional sanctification which is a done deal before Him (Heb 10:10,14; 2 Thess 2:13; 1 Cor 1:30-31), and happens all of the Lord once we believe, not of our will, but His.
I believe our part is laid out a few ways, spending time in His Word and with Him (Eph 5:26; John 17:17, Luke 10:38-42), and we should also feed the sheep if we love Him, I think there’s a picture of practical sanctification in the washing of the disciples feet in John 13. So believers should help other believers get cleaned up just as the Holy Spirit and the Word also do that work in us.
Confession of sin is important, hiding His Word in our hearts, actually taking heed to that Word (Ps 119:9-11) helps. There’s much more, but I don’t want to overload you with answers to questions that you may not be asking.
When we do not do our part and become disciples as believers, there are different consequences. Loss of rewards, could be physical suffering or even early death. Chastening or loss of fellowship is probably the worst, and the best when you come back, realizing what you’ve missed is the worse, but being back is such joy.
Thanks. As you said, your response is not comprehensive, but on the face of it I agree completely. So, it would seem that my concerns are not soterilogical. I guess this is my concern: If an unbeliever is in darkness, and in the bosom of the “lawless” one (anomia), and our call to an unbeliever is a call to life from death, does that not necessarily mean a life that serves the law of the Spirit of life?
I think we have be very careful not to mix up salvation, with service. Being given eternal life, with becoming a disciple.
The law of the Spirit of life IN Christ Jesus. This law when we were given eternal life imputed Christ’s righteousness to us. I should probably deliver the Word and let the Word answer.
For the law of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus hath made me free from the law of sin and death. Rom 8:2
We were freed from the penalty of death forever.
Now, as we walk correctly, we are then ‘being freed’ from the power of sin in our lives and our walk. But as chapter 7 clearly noted, we are not completely free from the presence of evil in our own flesh. Not until the day we die. Let’s not over complicate His simplicity and trust the Word to do the sanctifying work in people’s lives. Sometimes we forget great plainness of speech (2 Cor 3) so that more can understand, and the veil removed. Not pointing that at you, just speaking in general. What God has made as a simple message I’d rather not be guilty of adding slightly to, or taking away. Those verses were spoken to believers and their walk/fellowship with Him.
Non believers need to know the only thing the natural mind is really able to understand. The gospel. That is the tool God gave believers to plant and sow with. Once someone has believed they can begin to understand the spiritual things.
They need to know that they are sinners. As we all are, and the end of that? Is death for us all. There is one way out and that is Jesus Christ and His work on the cross. From the first time man sinned, God promised a way, a Seed which is Christ. He promised that Seed before time began that He would save the sinners from death, by sending a substitute in their place. The Scriptures foretold of this, that He would suffer and die for their sins, and that God would lay upon Jesus, the stripes (penalty) for our sins. Man sinned, man had to die. Only a perfect sacrifice would be a perfect answer, and Jesus is God, the Son of God, who came to willingly offer His sinless life, in exchange for our life. All we are told to do is believe upon Him for eternal life, and we will be saved (who He is:Lord, which means, God, the Messiah. And what He did on the cross-died and rose again as we will too). This was witnessed and the Scriptures prophesied these things in advance.
Paul, I have a few thoughts on your questions:
1. The presence of the Holy Spirit enables us to be able to choose to walk in the Spirit. Prior to being indwelled by the Holy Spirit, we had no such choice available to us. We were slaves to sin.
2. We now have as a guiding principle (or law) the ability to walk in the Spirit and not fulfill the lusts of the flesh.
3. This passage has nothing to do with becoming saved or providing evidence through our works that we are saved. The passage is about living experientially in a manner that is consistent with our position on Christ.
You said: “…and our call to an unbeliever is a call to life from death, does that not necessarily mean a life that serves the law of the Spirit of life?”
My comment: We tell people how they can receive eternal life by grace alone through faith alone in Christ alone. We do not call an unbeliever to any kind of service. We preach the gospel. If one believes the gospel, he is born of the Spirit. The new life, born of the Spirit, is sinless. The believer may walk in the Spirit, or not, as Paul points out in Galatians 5.
Very well written answer John, thank you for responding to Paul.
Holly, You say we are “all” sinners. Is that in regard to justification or sanctification?
I don’t say it, the Word says it (Rom 3:23, 5:12). It’s in regards to identifying who we are, what we have done, and what our penalty is; death. Can you clarify? Are you trying to establish positional or practical sanctification? Your questions aren’t all that clear to me. We are justified before God eternally, the moment we believe. We are also sanctified and glorified eternally.
There is still justification (before man not God, our testimony) as we walk still in the flesh, there is our sanctification practically, as we walk in the flesh, which is His will, and although we were already glorified, seated in heavenly places, when we get our resurrected bodies and are freed forever from the presence of sin, we will be glorified. Does that help? Or was that what you were asking? Not apparent to me.
Hope you don’t mind me adding a thought, I think Paul is saying we were sinners but we are now saints (forgive me if I am wrong), it is true of course that we are saints but I believe it is also still true that we are sinners saved by grace because the Apostle Paul said, “Christ Jesus came into the world to save sinners; of whom I am chief”, present tense.
Thanks Mark, I agree. We are qualified as saints, because of Christ’s righteousness imputed to us, but we still sin, and the verse you applied is perfect, and correct in the tense, appreciate your comment Mark. God bless you, Holly
The Bible says Christians are holy and righteous, and full of goodness, not only positionally, but practically. That’s why i am trying to get my mind around the whole Christians are sinners thing.
This may help Paul. I don’t think people correctly understand the two natures. And so it’s really helpful to know the difference between believer and disciple. Sanctified and being sanctified, and it’s better to list the verses, rather than say, “the Bible says”, because you might want to know what the context is. We are Holy because of Him. We are righteous, only because Christ is our breastplate of righteousness. We are saints, that sin, and will sin until the day we die. It is Christ who is ‘delivering’ (saving us) in the practical sense from loss of rewards, consequences, chastening, physical illness, even death as we see in 1 Cor 5 and the ones who were also taking communion unworthily. I John 1 shows us it can affect our fellowship with the Lord and other believers. So sin still has consequences in the temporal, but we are Holy and Righteous in His sight as a child of God (positional).
You might like by Pastor Thomas Cucuzza
Understanding the 2 Natures Pt 1
http://northlandchurch.com/content.cfm?id=213&download_id=21
Understanding the 2 Natures Pt 2
http://northlandchurch.com/content.cfm?id=213&download_id=22
Paul, the Bible has some of the following instructions for eternally secure, born again, believers in Christ:
1 Peter 2:11: Dearly beloved, I beseech you as strangers and pilgrims, abstain from fleshly lusts, which war against the soul;
Ephesians 4:1: I therefore, the prisoner of the Lord, beseech you that ye walk worthy of the vocation wherewith ye are called,
Romans 6:4: Therefore we are buried with him by baptism into death: that like as Christ was raised up from the dead by the glory of the Father, even so we also should walk in newness of life.
Romans 12:2: And be not conformed to this world: but be ye transformed by the renewing of your mind, that ye may prove what is that good, and acceptable, and perfect, will of God.
Galatians 5:16: This I say then, Walk in the Spirit, and ye shall not fulfill the lust of the flesh.
Titus 3:8: This is a faithful saying, and these things I will that thou affirm constantly, that they which have believed in God might be careful to maintain good works. These things are good and profitable unto men.
Romans 12:1: I beseech you therefore, brethren, by the mercies of God, that ye present your bodies a living sacrifice, holy, acceptable unto God, which is your reasonable service.
1 Peter 1:15: But as he which hath called you is holy, so be ye holy in all manner of conversation;
Hebrews 12:1 Wherefore seeing we also are compassed about with so great a cloud of witnesses, let us lay aside every weight, and the sin which doth so easily beset us, and let us run with patience the race that is set before us,
The above verses mention that Christians do not automatically do the things they should. They are called to holiness. They are admonished to set aside sin. They are exhorted to good works.
The sin which does “so easily beset us”… speaks volumes. We need to stay close to the Lord and His Word, for apart from Him, we can do nothing.
Holly, so we are “qualified as saints” because Christ’s righteousness is imputed to us. You also say, “but we still sin.” Is this imputation a onetime imputation, or is the imputation of Christ’s righteousness imputed to us as we continue to sin?
Paul, you will have your flesh (where you sinful nature dwells) until the moment you die. Until death, your flesh will continue to sin. In your spirit, which has been renewed or changed by Christ, you will fight sin on the inward because you know, now that you’re born again and have a new nature, sin is wrong and not pleasing to God. You will continue have a war within you until the moment you die. Paul spoke of this struggle in Romans 7. When you are saved and given a new nature by Christ, you don’t automatically lose your old nature. You are saved from your old nature and the things it is natural bent on doing. To get rid of your flesh, your old nature and this corruptible body of death, you need to die physically. Wrestling with your flesh in your new nature is a normal ongoing situation. It’s not fun. The more mature you become in Christ, the more uncomfortable your old fleshly nature will make you feel. God understands our infirmities and He knows we struggle with this. This is why, I believe, so many older Christians get to the point where they are ready to let this old body go and to go on and be with Christ where they will be made perfect as they await their glorified bodies that He promised.
Yes Angela…. awaiting that day with great excitement, a day we can only imagine… (1 Cor 2:9)
As a second question, where does the Bible say we have 2 natures?
Why don’t you try the two part series I shared earlier if you really would like to know, I not understanding if you just don’t understand or are trying to get somewhere? You are welcome to just state your point clearly if you think a certain way, and it would be much easier to go from there I think, because we are bouncing all over, but not really seeming as if you are hearing the answers, or acknowledging them as being answered, whether you agree, disagree or unsure, and then you move on to another? Can you help a little bit?
If you have listened to his series, you would realize we have the 1) sin nature/flesh, as we still sin (unless you don’t), and we have the new 2)nature which does not sin, for His seed remains in us.
Listening to them while I was waiting for you to answer. He states in one of the messages that Christ saves us from sin daily, which I find somewhat interesting. Anyway, are you saying, and I think this is a pretty straightforward question, that our righteousness is only positional and all of our practical righteousness is of Christ. Is that what you are saying? Seems like a pretty straightforward question.
There is where you have to look at the soteria or sozo, deliverance. Being saved from the penalty of sin is practical sanctification, being saved from the penalty of sin is eternal sanctification (Heb 10:10, 14) and many of the previous verses I already gave you.
We have to cooperate, take for example, this passage spoken to believers. If they need to be told these things, obviously they are no sin free. Nor were any of the believers. It is only the new nature that is sin free. That is what the Bible states in 1 John 3.
For this is the will of God, even your sanctification, that ye should abstain from fornication: That every one of you should know how to possess his vessel in sanctification and honour; Not in the lust of concupiscence, even as the Gentiles which know not God: That no man go beyond and defraud his brother in any matter: because that the Lord is the avenger of all such, as we also have forewarned you and testified. For God hath not called us unto uncleanness, but unto holiness. 1 Thess 4:3-7
So for a straightforward question back, what do you think?
Are you sinless. Or do you sin?
Paul, Romans 4:8 means that we have imputed righteousness. I don’t think we need to be forgiven each time we sin.
Our practical righteousness is also of Christ.
Also, I have listened to most of these messages, In the Romans text, he states that the old, or second nature that wages war against us is a “law” (7:;23). So, is the second nature a “law” that Paul is speaking of? This also seems like a pretty straightforward question.
I think “law” refers to the principle that the flesh cannot be reformed. Only subdued.
Thank you John again! The flesh is corruptible, and has not been glorified, so we will still sin until the day it is raised incorruptible. Until then…looking forward to that day…
John or Holly: Can our mind be reformed? And is it literally our mind, a part of our being? And isn’t it true that the flesh (also “members”) can be used for righteousness? This gets back to my original question regarding whether or not our righteousness is only positional. Is all of our practical righteousness that of Christ? Is our mortality an actual old nature? And if it is, in what respect did we die with Christ? If the old us died, and the new us was resurrected with Christ, in what regard is that not a reformation? If our “members” can be used for righteousness, how does that relate to a flesh that cannot be Reformed?
We can have righteousness of our own, that is self-righteousness.
I didn’t notice, did you answer any of the questions?
Do you sin? How much? Or not? Are you sinless?
Is your behavior part of proof of your salvation?
I also asked you earlier to state your point clearly regarding how you believe or think, saying, it would be much easier to go from there.(I didn’t see a response to that either). We are bouncing all over, with no concluding thoughts, and it does not appear like there is a dialogue, but a long string of questions.
So please if you will, answer, the questions and state your beliefs clearly.
I will state mine again clearly.
I believe He is our righteousness. He is our positional righteousness, and He is working righteousness in us through the sanctification of His Word, through the prayer of others along with ourselves, and through being in right fellowship with Him, as we confess our sins, this restores our fellowship. Believers are told to confess their sins, believers sin in the flesh.
Whether or not you understand the sin nature and the new nature, I don’t know if that be solved with no discussion or interaction, but just a lot of questions. (Or questions answering questions).
I will state I believe we have the old sin nature who is no longer in bondage to sin, meaning, death no longer has a hold on us, AND we have a new nature, which happened at the moment of our belief. That new creation needs fed, which is why believers were exhorted to desire the sincere milk of His Word. It’s why Jesus prayed in the garden for us to be sanctified by the Word of Truth, it’s why we are told to put on our armor daily as believers, which is why we are told in His Word to continue in the things we have learned because of the imposters and deceivers and deceived, only getting worse. Because they have not done that. They are busy listening to men like John MacArthur and do not do the noble thing and search His Word to see if things are really so.
I’m not sure of what you read of what other’s write, or if this is just an exercise for you. I assure that the ones I have seen respond are sincere in the handling of His Word, no deceit is intended, no hidden agendas, no craftiness, but in the manifestation of His truth, these take time to commend themselves to all in the sight of God, that some may come to know Him.
We speak the Word, so let’s answer questions, have a discussion WITH the Word rightly divided, knowing the Word is able to make people wise unto salvation through faith in Him, knowing doctrine is important, and the Word is for reproof, correction & instruction in righteousness, which gives us all we need to be able to maintain good works (combo of 2 Tim 3 and Titus 3:8)
So let’s be more direct, but until you answer the questions and state what you believe, I think this is becoming an exercise in futility.
By the way Paul, I did also ask for your gospel, which is not easily available on either of your pages I just went to. I am not a neo-Calvinist, nor a Calvinist, nor an Arminian.
I did ask you also on one of the earlier posts what your gospel is. May I see it here? Present the gospel, and/or your statement of faith, which should be readily available on any site that purports to be a Christian one.
I suggest you do that on your sites, keeping things out in the light, and so that we are doing things as we should.
Therefore seeing we have this ministry, as we have received mercy, we faint not; but have renounced the hidden things of dishonesty, not walking in craftiness, nor handling the word of God deceitfully; but by manifestation of the truth commending ourselves to every man’s conscience in the sight of God. But if our gospel be hid, it is hid to them that are lost: in whom the god of this world hath blinded the minds of them which believe not, lest the light of the glorious gospel of Christ, who is the image of God, should shine unto them. For we preach not ourselves, but Christ Jesus the Lord; and ourselves your servants for Jesus’ sake. For God, who commanded the light to shine out of darkness, hath shined in our hearts, to give the light of the knowledge of the glory of God in the face of Jesus Christ. 2 Cor 4:1-6
Holly,
Sorry you couldn’t find our doctrinal statement on the gospel, I Will fetch the link and post it here. Meanwhile, I would like to answer two of your questions, but I need some clarification on #2.
1.” Is your behavior part of proof of your salvation?” ABSOLUTELY NOT!
2. “Do you sin? How much? Or not? Are you sinless?”
Clarification needed: Does your question pertain to justification or sanctification?
Paul, agree with #1, #2, as far as being justified and sanctified forever, I am. I do not believe in some sort of progressive justification. However, I do believe we still have justification before men, which is our testimony and benefits them.
As far as sanctification, (which I have explained before I am sure), I believe in positional sanctification, and I believe we are perfected forever, see previously cited verses.
I also believe that we still ARE BEING sanctified by the truth of God’s Word, some more than others.
I don’t think it’s too hard to answer question 2, or provide a gospel without going to get a link, we should always be ready with an answer, and don’t you agree that all of our sites should have that availability instantly?
Holly,
Who are you to judge me? You don’t even know what you believe; viz, your soteriology is exactly that of John Calvin, and yes, you do hold to progressive justification. While bashing Calvin, MacArthur et al, you, or the other authors of this blog do not have a real understanding of what they believe. They believe what you believe. If you know what you believe, post this and prove me wrong. At any rate, I will be doing a series on the anti-lordship salvation crowd, and comparing statements here, on your blog in general, statements by Tom et al, and comparing them to direct citations from the Calvin Institutes. This blog is chock-full of statements that directly reflect Reformed thought. Your ignorance has cost me friends in the past, and I let it go, but recent tensions among people very important to me has incited further investigation into what you people believe. I intend to clarify the confusion you are causing among Christians.
I don’t even know who you are (Paul), other than going to your blog to try to figure out what you were trying to say. The only thing I see is just confusion in your writings.
“My ignorance has cost you friends in the past?” Now, I’m really confused, but I think it’s better if you just stay with your own blog, and do your teaching there, let each person study to show themselves approved unto God.
If I have known you from somewhere, I am unaware.
Tom is not confused, nor reformed. His teachings use the Word of God, something it seems like the majority of your blogs and your writings are missing a good portion of. Instead of trying to trip up people, you might try sharing the Word of God, and trusting the power of God’s Word to work as He sends it. (Heb 4:12, Isaiah 55:8-9)
You said: “…yes, you do hold to progressive justification”
My comment: Skubala!
We DO NOT believe in progressive justification. What a crock of skubula!
These excerpts, from Clear Gospel Campaign, are consistent with my beliefs on this matter:
“We believe that the body of Greek literature generated prior to, and concurrent with the writing of the New Testament, requires that the term “justification” is a forensic decree by which a person or object is declared to be “all right” or “OK” in the estimation of the declarant, not a process by which a person or object gradually conforms to the will of another. We therefore believe that when Scripture speaks of men being justified before God through faith in Jesus Christ (Romans 3:20, 24, 28), that this does not refer to a process by which God molds or conforms men to holiness or godliness over time, but rather, to a divine decree whereby men, though still sinful and subject to all manner of wickedness, are declared “not guilty” and wholly acceptable in the sight of God (Romans 5:8). We further believe that the intrinsic meaning of justification being a forensic decree rather than a dynamic process can be demonstrated by the use of various forms of the term “dikiao” (justify) within Scripture, even apart from extra-biblical literature (Luke 18:14; Acts 13:39). We believe that the sole basis of justification before God is the blood of Jesus Christ, and that the sole requirement for justification before God is faith in Jesus Christ (Romans 3:24-25; 5:1, 9). We believe that progressive conformation to the will of God through obedience to His laws has never been, and will never be the basis of justification before God (Romans 3:28; 4:2).”
and
“That justification of the believer by God, (dikiao, dikiasune) is a forensic (legal) process by which God declares a lost sinner to be “not guilty” in the supreme tribunal, imputing to the believer the spotless righteousness of His Son in spite of the reality of sin in the life of the believer, and that any doctrine that impugns the absolute righteous standing of the believer before God necessarily impugns the righteousness of his Son that has been imputed to those who are saved.”
I love that word John… it reminds me of all the things I used to think were important, and that now are but dung to me. And prayerfully more and more will be behind me, as I press forward…
Brethren, I count not myself to have apprehended: but this one thing I do, forgetting those things which are behind, and reaching forth unto those things which are before, I press toward the mark for the prize of the high calling of God in Christ Jesus. Phil 3:13-14
Holly,
Right, so confusing that you are removing the link to my blog so others here cannot go there. Yes, Tom is so confused that he is Reformed and doesn’t know it. The articles will be heavily tagged, will name names, and we will let the people decide.
I always do remove links if I cannot determine whether or not they line up with His Word. I could not recommend your site. I do not mean to be unkind, but I’ll ask you to cease and desist now from any more comments.
I will let the Lord do the judging between you and I. 🙂
He is the only one whose opinion I am concerned with. In Christ’s name in all. Praying for you.
1 Corinthians 14:33: “For God is not the author of confusion, but of peace, as in all churches of the saints.”
Amen John and Angela.
And to PAUL, no, I did not approve your comment, there is no need to ‘beg for the privilege to comment’, I have asked you to cease and desist, because it is clear you are not here to hear what the Word says. When someone is not really seeming to want to discourse with others, but to make accusations, all I can say is this is not the place for you. I do hope and pray you will come to a clear understanding of the gospel.
Hold on just a second. Let me make an observation.
John stated quite emphatically, “We DO NOT believe in progressive justification…These excerpts, from Clear Gospel Campaign, are consistent with my beliefs on this matter:”
You then go on to quote the following from the CGC: “That justification of the believer by God, (dikiao, dikiasune) is a forensic (legal) process by which God declares a lost sinner to be “not guilty” in the supreme tribunal,”
These two statements are contradictory. Your quote from the CGC clearly states their belief that justification is a process. That is very definition of progressive. In addition, how can a declaration of something be a process? A process implies something that is ongoing. A declaration is made and then over with, finished, ended. You cannot claim that you believe that justification is not progressive, and then cite as a source that you say is consitent with your beliefs that plainly states that it IS a process.
Secondly, what exactly is the “supreme tribunal” referenced in this quote? To what specific judgement are they referring?
So Andrew, will you explain what you believe progressive justification to be? Thank you. I’ll let Ron or John answer for themselves.
Dear Andrew: Ron Shea Here, founder of Clear Gospel Campaign. I’m having a little trouble understanding anything you have written. So let’s start with the basics: 1) Where does my web site allegedly state that justification is a “progressive” event. Do you understand the nature of a legal decree? If a woman’s husband is missing in Vietnam for seven years, and she wants to re-marry, she goes to court, and has her husband DECLARED legally dead. Note, there is NO FINDING. They have not found his body. The court is not finding anything. A legal decree establishes LEGAL TRUTH, not ONTOLOGICAL TRUTH. As a matter of LAW, Jesus was DECLARED (not FOUND) guilty of the sins of the world. A declaratory judgment forms the legal predicate for the conferral or denial of certain rights. Once Jesus was declared guilty of the sins of the world in the tribunal of heaven, God had the legal authority to turn him over to the Romans for punishment for those sins. This was not a PROCESS. God didn’t need to “re-hear” the matter once a week for a month, and “re-rule” on it every ten steps Jesus took along the path to Gethsemane. A legal declaration is an event, not a process.
If a woman’s husband is declared dead by the court, she has the right to go out and remarry. She does not need to go to the judge fifteen more times and say, “Are you sure I can remarry?”
We had to add the prefix “the inerrant, infallible, inspired word of God.” because somehow, people insisted the Word Of God has errors. And the “infallible Word of God” also had errors. So we had to add a string of qualifiers to obviate the distortions by dishonest men.
The word grace means a “free gift.” Generally speaking, it is the disposition of the giver. So why do we need the prefix “free grace?” Because dishonest men distorted the plain meaning of the term! But “free grace” is a tautology, like saying the “un-spotted holy God.” But if he is holy, the term “un-spotted” OUGHT to be superfluous.
And the Clear Gospel Web site goes to great length to define justification by what it IS (a forensic decree in the eyes of the declarant imputing a status to the one being justified,”) and what it is NOT (a process of progressive sanctification.)
WHY WOULD GOD NEED A BULL HORN?
So I was quite shocked to read that my article on FORENSIC JUSTIFICATION teaches progressive justification? This is exactly why “Lordship Salvation” / bi-lateral contract salvation / reformed theology flourishes. Notwithstanding what the text says, people keep seeing their own theology in there.
It reminds me of the two surfer dudes” who had just become “BORNAGAIN.” (A single word). They were giving their testimony on a talk show, and the host asked about their conversion experience. One said, “we were out surfing one day, and we heard the voice of God!”
Startled, the host said, “REALLY!” And just what did God say to you?
The first surfer said, without hesitation, “You are fifty feet from the pier. Please maintain a 100 foot buffer.”
The talk show host stared into the camera incredulously. Finally, he asked, “Well, couldn’t that have been a lifeguard?
The first surfer responded, “Well, if you don’t want to believe it was God, we are not going to force our religion on you. But we believe it was God.”
And the second chimed in, “And besides, how would we be able to hear a lifeguard? The surf was pounding, and we were fifty feet away from the pier.”
The talk show host plead, “Well, couldn’t he have used a bull horn? To which the second surfer replied, “Why would God need a bullhorn?”
When I get in debates such as this, I feel like our dear old exasperated talk show host. Now matter how straight and plain my statement or explanation, it is to no avail.
NEVERTHELESS, I ask you in earnest: 1) Where does Clear Gospel state or infer that justification is a process? and 2) Could you explain a bit more specifically where the discussion of justification on the Clear Gospel web site “contradicts itself.” Apart from the bare allegation, I kind of missed the logic supporting that statement. Perhaps you can elucidate.
Very respectfully,
Ronald Shea, Th.M., J.D.
Founder, Clear Gospel Campaign
Thank you Ronald, it’s good to hear the explanation from a Christian and also a legal viewpoint as an attorney, appreciate you taking the time to answer.
I’d like to ask Andrew if he is the same Paul that has been responding (with mainly questions and accusations), since their IP addresses are very close together in Ohio,
Paul, whom I asked to cease and desist (twice) after the threats to name names, etc. (might bring more to hear a Clear Gospel over on this site, so what the enemy means for harm, we pray the Lord will use for good).
If Andrew is indeed another person, maybe he’ll identify if he is taking teaching from Paul since they sound like one and the same.
Andrew, I wil tell you, just like I told Paul:
I do not believe in progressive justification. Why not? Because, the Bible clearly teaches that justification happens, and is permanent and irreversible, the moment one believes:
Romans 4:8: Blessed is the man to whom the Lord will not impute sin.
John 5:24: Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that heareth my word, and believeth on him that sent me, hath everlasting life, and shall not come into condemnation; but is passed from death unto life.
I think Ron Shea did a pretty good job of explaining his position. But, I am going to add to it.
You said: “Your quote from the CGC clearly states their belief that justification is a process. That is very definition of progressive.”
My comment: Correction. That is ONE of the definitions of “process.” Another, from Merriam-Webster online is:
“the whole course of proceedings in a legal action”
and “forensic”:
“belonging to, used in, or suitable to courts of judicature or to public discussion and debate”
Not to speak for Ron, but I believe these are the ways in which he was using “process” and “forensic.”
Thank you for taking the time to respond, appreciate it John. It is hard to sometimes look and think on what He has done in eternity, still living in the here and now, but I am so thankful for His work on the cross in my place.
Wow, I’m not even sure how to reply to this. I debated the wisdom of even inserting myself into this fray. I can see now I probably should have just stayed out of it. Nevertheless, in for a penny in for a pound.
As I said in my first comment, I was simply making an observation that I though should have been obvious to any honest, thinking, reasoning human being. But perhaps honest observations and reasoning, thinking individuals aren’t welcome here. After all,Martin Luther himself stated, “Reason is the Devil’s greatest whore; by nature and manner of being she is a noxious whore; she is a prostitute, the Devil’s appointed whore; whore eaten by scab and leprosy who ought to be trodden under foot and destroyed, she and her wisdom … Throw dung in her face to make her ugly.”
First let me address Holly.
No, I am not Paul. The only person I take teaching from is the Holy Spirit. That being said, I would take offense at your accusation, but I have learned that I cannot be offended unless I choose to be. I would not give away my power like that. Therefore I choose not to be offended at your rude accusations. It is certainly not the most courteous way to treat a first-time commenter and guest, let alone demonstrate the love of Christ that you claim to be such a proponent of. The world looks at us and it sees how we treat each other. With such an example as yours with respect to the way you responded to me, no wonder the world doesn’t want to have anything to do with Christianity. Shame on you.
Secondly, to Ronald Shea, Th.M., J.D.
I certainly don’t have as many letters at the end of my name as you do, so perhaps you immediately think that disqualifies me from making any sort of informed observation on theoligical matters. I will admit that I am a simple man and do not have the pedigree that you have. Nevertheless, you stated in your reply, “I’m having a little trouble understanding anything you have written.” I am incredulous that you would have a hard time understanding what I have written since you are apparently so much smarter and more enlightened than I am. Like I said, I am a simple man, and I use simple words, and I thought what I wrote was pretty clear.
So since this is to be an exercise in rhetoric, as you said, let’s start with the basics. You asked, “1) Where does my web site allegedly state that justification is a “progressive” event.” I will concede that I myself have not found a specific quote on your site; I have never been to the CGC website. In fact, I never made any accusations against the CGC specifically. Another commenter, “johninnc” cited a quote that he asserted was from the CGC website. “Johninnc” stated that, “[t]hese excerpts, from Clear Gospel Campaign, are consistent with my beliefs on this matter, [regarding justification].” So it was “johninnc” who opened the CGC to this scrutiny in the first place, not me.
I then observed how that “johninnc’s” stated position on justification not being progressive was inconsistent with the quote that he cited, specifically, “That justification of the believer by God, (dikiao, dikiasune) is a forensic (legal) process by which God declares a lost sinner to be “not guilty” in the supreme tribunal,”. Again, it was “johninnc” who asserted that this quote was from the CGC. For purposes of full disclosure, no, I did not follow up to verify if this quote was found anywhere on the CGC website. (my bad).
How is this inconsistent with “johninnc’s” stated belief? Let me highlight the key words in the above quote. “justification…is a…process”. Did I miss something there, or do those words not mean what I think they mean? “Johninnc” claims that he doesn’t believe in progressive justification, but then he chooses to cite a quotation that states that justification IS a process. A process is something that is in a continuous state of coming into being. Progressive. It is progressing to an end that has not yet been accomplished. Either the CGC indeed functionally believes in a progressive justification (by your own current definition), or it has unwittingly stumbled over an incorrect usage of terminology.
Second.
You asked, “Do you understand the nature of a legal decree?” I find the tone of that question humiliating and condescending. Perhaps that was the intention. After all, you are apparently a lawyer and I am not, so no, I would not have the abliity to nuance a defintion of terms as you would. By even asking that question you are attempting to put me into a defensive position by asserting your superiority over me as one not having the same level of knowledge (gnosis) as you do. That is a very clever legal tactic. You are a lawer, after all. You should be good at that.
Third.
You failed to answer my question regarding the “supreme tribunal”. Specifically, my question was, “what exactly is the “supreme tribunal” referenced in this quote? To what specific judgement are they referring?”
If you are unclear about what I am asking, then let me ask a more pointed question. Is the “supreme tribunal” that you mention a reference to the Bema or the Great White Throne Judgment? Your answer to that question will be an indication of what you truly believe about justification.
I make no apologies for my own tone in this comment. I came here initially, humbly and respectfully making a simple observation that anyone with a brain should have been able make as well, and I simply asked questions for clarification. The Lord, Himself even declared in Isaiah 1:18, “Come now, and let us reason together…” In return, I was ridiculed and treated with contempt. Your own attitude and that of Holly’s towards me was one of condescension and suspicion, as if you had something to hide. In short, you speak and act no differently from the reformed/calvinist theologians you claim to despise. If you are so certain of your own beliefs, then they should be able to stand up to scrutiny and honest questioning. Rather than addressing the issue, you attemped to discredit me. Are your arguments that weak? Or are you afraid someone else might begin to ask questions. I await your reply with bated breath, but I even sincerely doubt that you will have the courage to pass this comment through moderation.
Andrew: You answered my question, “No, I am not Paul. The only person I take teaching from is the Holy Spirit”.
“That being said, I would take offense at your accusation”. (I’m not really sure how asking a sincere question is an offense, I’d simply answer it, “nope, not me”….)
“Therefore I choose not to be offended at your rude accusations.” (Please let me know which part of my question to you was rude)
” …..let alone demonstrate the love of Christ that you claim to be such a proponent of”.
I won’t repeat the rest, for the reason you cited 🙂 How the world looks on these foolish arguments (So let’s remember Col 4:5-6).
I asked you an honest question, for some very sound reasons which I will be happy to share.
1) You both have labeled others here as having believed in progressive justification, or stating that are comments are such, in light of each taking the time to deny this belief, and also and explaining to the contrary.
2) Your two IP addresses, and “Paul”s IP address, all three were very near to each other in Ohio, seemed as if it was a bit of a coincidence, didn’t know if you know Paul (you didn’t say), or if you were Paul. We do have teachers in the church, so asking you if you took teaching from him (similar school of thought, and living in the same area), shouldn’t be an offensive question.
3) You had a very similar style of writing, i.e., “These two statements are contradictory. Your quote from the CGC clearly states their belief that justification is a process. That is very definition of progressive.”
In conclusion, I made no judgments but asked you, even with what seemed like an obvious conclusion. I still gave the benefit of the doubt and asked, yet you took offense and went on the offense. Not sure where you see rudeness in my questions to you. I was not going to post your post, feeling this is becoming striving. And it’s not because I took your bait of having “the courage to pass this comment through moderation”.
Had you not addressed the others, I probably would have let your comments lie, for wisdom, not courage or lack thereof. God will give me what I need prayerfully in all areas. Not sure truthfully if it is wise, as you have used words in addressing us such as contempt, ridicule, bad attitudes, condescension (suspicion was founded on your part, I admit, I was most certainly wondering).
As to the rest, I’ll let them answer if they choose. May you also consider your own tone, whether you came here humble, we all need to stay that way in addressing one another.(1 Pet 5).
My own arguments are and always will be based in the Word, all others need to be rejected if they do not line up with it. As for you, I await your use of Word in your own discussions. Paul too was lacking there, and it is the foundation we should be careful to use.
From now on, please use specific corrections, i.e, you comment here seemed rude ____________________________ and in light of (Bible citation) correct me. Otherwise, no more accusations of accusations, of rudeness, or clever tactics, or understanding someone else’s motives (i.e – you are attempting to put me in a defensive position….etc.), or having something to hide, or calling us as if we are reformed, Calvinists, etc. Now this kind of speech to one another is sowing discord, and I will not allow it longer.
If you want to respond and ask questions and one wishes to answer, do it by the Word, in order, and without lists of our behavior, thoughts, intents, etc. Let’s let the Word discern the thoughts and intents of our hearts.
Thanks John: As always, one needs to go back to the context. . . either for Scripture, or any other author.
Whether I, or anyone else used the term “process” is secondary to the context of the Statement on Justification in the Clear Gospel web site.
START OF QUOTE
“Introduction to Justification
“The body of Greek literature generated prior to, and concurrent with the writing of the New Testament, plainly demonstrates that “justification” (from the Greek “dikiao”) is a forensic decree by which a person or object is declared to be “all right” or “o.k.” in the estimation of the declarant. There is no lexical evidence whatsoever to suggest that justification is a process by which a person or object is gradually transformed to conform to the will of another.
“Therefore, when Scripture speaks of men being justified before God through faith in Jesus Christ (Romans 3:20, 24-25, 28), this does not refer to a process by which God transforms men to holiness or godliness over time. Rather, it is a divine decree whereby men, though still sinful and subject to all manner of wickedness, are declared “not guilty” and wholly acceptable in the sight of God (Romans 5:8).
“The intrinsic meaning of justification as a forensic decree (rather than a dynamic process) can be demonstrated by the use of various forms of the term “dikiao” (justify) within Scripture, even apart from extra-biblical literature (Luke 18:14; Acts 13:39).
“The sole basis of justification before God is the blood of Jesus Christ, and that the sole requirement for justification before God is faith in Jesus Christ (Romans 3:24-25; 5:1, 9). Progressive conformation to the will of God through obedience to His laws has never been, and will never be the basis of justification before God (Romans 3:28; 4:2).
“When taken to its logical conclusion, the doctrine of the “perseverance of the saints” is a form of justification by works, offering a forensic declaration that someone is truly saved only after a life of good works has preceded that declaration. This errant view of sanctification and assurance is often predicated on an errant view of the meaning and operation of “grace.”
END OF QUOTE
I guess if someone is determined to find Augustinian/Thomastic/Calvinistic thought in some writing, they will find it, notwithstanding the context and the plain, blunt argument of the author! Thanks again.
Well I imagine all get a portion right in certain areas, we know the enemy uses truth to accuse. Deceivers like Augustine and Calvin, could not have deceived if they were blatantly deceivers, but they were wolves in sheep’s clothing.
Andrew, you asked about the “supreme tribunal”. Specifically, whether it refers to the judgment seat of Christ, or the Great White Throne judgment. I don’t think it refers to either.
The forensic decree, by which we are declared “not guilty”, does not take place at either of the above judgments. Rather, it is at the moment of belief.
The “supreme tribunal” refers to the Father, Son, and Holy Spirit. The timing of their decree is the moment one trusts in Christ – not a later declaration.
As I understand it, the judgment seat of Christ does not include a judgment of whether or not someone gets into heaven. Rather, it is the judgment of believers and their works (see 1 Corinthians 3:11-15) Everyone at the judgment seat of Christ gets into heaven.
At the Great White Throne Judgment, there is a cross-reference to the Book of Life – no one at the Great White Throne Judgment will be found in the Book of Life.
So, everyone at the judgment seat of Christ gets into heaven. And, everyone at the Great White Throne Judgment ends up in hell. See Revelation 20:11-15.
johninnc
Fisrt of all, thank you for confirming again that the quote in question was from the CGC. There seemed to be some disagreement from Ron Shea about that.
I’m not sure if you have clarified things at all with your reply, though. You said: “That is ONE of the definitions of ‘process.’ Another, from Merriam-Webster online is: ‘the whole course of proceedings in a legal action’ ”
So now justification can also be described as a whole course of proceedings. How is that not still a progression? I’m afraid you have simply traded words for words that mean the same thing. Again, back to my original point, your beliefs are not consitent with the terms you use to define them.
Inserting another observation in here, Holly chided me for not using the “Word”, but I find it curious that instead of using the “Word” to define justification, you point to an online dictionary.
So, if justification is a process of a whole course of proceedings, and assuming that justification is finished (which it is), when did that process begin and when did it end? I think we need to establish that.
Ronald Shea
The only point of relevance I was able to take away from your reply was that “johninnc’s” quote contained the word “process”, whereas your version of the quote did not. So, did “johninnc” inadvertently mistype the quote from the CGC website, or has the CGC made a correction by subsequently removing the word “process” from the defintion of justification? Perhaps “johninnc” can clarify for us where on the CGC website he found the specific quote he cited.
Furthermore, with regard to the discrepancy in the quotes cited, I also notice that there is no reference to a “divine tribunal” in the passage that you provided, whereas the one “johninnc” provided does. Has this reference been subsequently corrected as well? Is that the reason why you neglected to address that question?
The question was, is the “supreme tribunal” that you mention a reference to the Bema or the Great White Throne Judgment?
Thank you for your time.
Andy
As John already said, I also do not believe it is the Bema or Great White Throne judgment. This is Elohiym, the Almighty God, declaring Jesus guilty and placing on Him, the sins of us all. The Lamb slain from the foundation of the world.
All we like sheep have gone astray;
we have turned every one to his own way;
and the Lord hath laid on him the iniquity of us all.
Isaiah 53:6
Yes, clearly, the prophet Isaiah was making reference to Christ and the symbolism of the sacrifice mentioned in Leviticus 16, where one goat was slain and offered for a sin offering to the Lord. Jesus did indeed shed his blood as an offering for sin. Jesus also serves as the “scapegoat” which bore all the iniquities and was released into the wilderness, thus “taking away” all the sins with it. Surley, Jesus not only died for our sins, He “took them away” completely, as far as the east is from the west. Which is why, as far as justification is concerned, believers are not only “declared righteous”, we ARE righteous, because our sin has been taken away by Chrst.
I just don’t see why you “Free Grace” folks get so worked up over the NT call for repentance when repentance has to be granted to a person by God (Acts 11:18). In other words, repentance could not be “works” unless you say that faith is also “works” – when it, too, must be granted (Phil. 1:29). Where’s you logic… or your biblical literacy?
Willy Hamil — Thank you for visiting. I appreciate your concern for my biblical literacy. What is repentance to you? I assume you think like Ray Comfort (since you are commenting here) that it means turn from sin.
What does God call a work here?
Oh, and by the way, who does the repenting?
Who can tell if God will turn and repent, and turn away from his fierce anger, that we perish not?
And God saw their works, THAT>>> they turned from their evil way; and God repented of the evil, that he had said that he would do unto them; and he did it not. Jonah 3:9-10
How is it given unto us to ‘believe on Christ’?
Through the power of the gospel.
So we know there must be the PREACHING of the gospel. (Rom 10:14-16)
The HEARING of the Word to come to faith (Rom 10:17)
The SCRIPTURES are able to make us wise unto salvation (2 Tim 3:15).
We are BORN AGAIN by the incorruptible seed which is the WORD of God (1 Pet 1:23)
We are BEGET by the WORD – James 1:17-18
The WORD effectually works in those of us who have believed (1 Thess 2:13)
We are CALLED by the Gospel and sanctified by BELIEF in the TRUTH (2 Thess 2:13-14)
We need Laborers for the harvest.
Why? If God just puts faith upon one, and faith upon another, and chooses a few more for condemnation, WHAT exactly is the need for planting and sowing? Why is it we pray for laborers for the harvest?
Free grace folks…
Has the connotation of somehow an insult, yet since it is His grace that is free, undeserved, I thank Him for His Son, who came to die for the WHOLE WORLD – 1 John 2:2, John 3:16, who loved the Sinner – John 3:16, Rom 5:5-8, who gave His life a ransom for ALL (1 Tim 2:1-6), who took upon Him, the sins of ALL (Is 53:6), who desires we pray for ALL men, and was a ransom for ALL.
Praying some day you might be able to see past your Calvinist dark lenses. It is a matter of life and death. How were you saved?
Brad, it may be hard to understand, but the Bible tells us there are soil 2 believers who only believe for a while. These people still have eternal life that can never be lost or forfeited.
I know it seems far fetched to you that you might ever stop believing. And yet, what if your eternal life depended on you continuing to believe? It wouldn’t be eternal life. It would be conditional eternal life, which is a logical absurdity.
Who are some of those who only believe for a while? I think it includes people who are clear on grace, and then fall for false gospels, such as Lordship “salvation.”
John – if my eternal life depended on my continuing to believe, I will have forgotten the law of liberty, and what manner of woman I am. I know, I have been there, not that experience matters, however I’ve had my life made shipwreck by these false teachings. Worse? What if I had never understood the clear gospel from the beginning? I shudder to think. It’s why you continue, why all of us do.
Ok, I will concede on “Belief stopping” to some degree. Maybe John and I are having a semantics debate. Yankee Arnold says for example “Faith without works is dead” Faith=belief So, dead doesn’t mean literally dead just non effective. So wouldn’t belief “Stopping be the same thing?” The battery (belief/faith) is still there it’s just non effective for service or “Stopped.”
Brad
Brad, I’m a little tired, but I answered a similar question earlier. Belief and faith are not necessarily the same, most especially how it is used, and how it is being spoken of. For example ‘the faith’. Or believing for eternal life (a one time occurrence). Or working out our faith (the quality of our walk).
Faith and belief can be several different things. There can be the faith that is built by the hearing of the Word. We can have degrees of faith, but believing upon Jesus Christ in order to be given the free gift of eternal life, is one pastors often try to qualify it with terminology that the Word doesn’t use with the free gift of eternal life.
We either believe it to be true, or we don’t. And the result is instantaneous. The moment we believe UPON Him vs. any other way to be saved, we are born again. We have died, and been buried with Him in the baptism of the Holy Spirit. We are indwelt FOREVER, ALL sins paid for and we are perfected FOREVER. We are given a guarantee by the seal of the Holy Spirit who baptizes us into the body and who keeps us until the day of redemption. We are given an inheritance which is reserved UNDEFILED in heaven for us. We are made a new creation (although the old is still here), the new creation doesn’t sin, the old man, the flesh does. That new creation is already seated in heavenly places, already passed from death unto life, already taken out of darkness and placed into the light. We are made ‘meet’ to be partakers of the inheritance of the saints in the light by the Father Himself. We have our citizenship now in heaven, we are called Sons of God.
This is all at the split second we believe upon Him to save us. We can’t let someone qualify what believing a truth is, for all they do is corrupt minds from the simplicity that is in Christ. Or allow someone to suggest if someone has faltered in their faith, that He is not faithful to His promises to keep us.
James is qualifying what kind of faith a person has once they are a believer, a working faith, or a dead faith that is not bringing forth fruit. This is why 2 Peter 1:5-11 tells us what we must add to our faith in order to have many benefits. It also benefits others. It benefits our fellowship with the Lord and others. And it benefits us in the rewards department (an abundant entrance into heaven). So yes, we need to distinguish what kind of faith is being spoken of. Faith that something is true. Stronger faith. A great faith. O ye of little faith. Or even a faith without works. Or one who is even unfaithful. Don’t know if that helps, I hope so.
This may help you on James 2 Brad.
“Faith without works is Dead” by Tom Cucuzza.
I just read this in Jude and found it relevant to the last few comments:
14 And Enoch also, the seventh from Adam, prophesied of these, saying, Behold, the Lord cometh with ten thousands of his saints,
15 To execute judgment upon all, and to convince all that are ungodly among them of all their ungodly deeds which they have ungodly committed, and of all their hard speeches which ungodly sinners have spoken against him.
16 These are murmurers, complainers, walking after their own lusts; and their mouth speaketh great swelling words, having men’s persons in admiration because of advantage.
I greet you in Jesus’ Name Holly
You wrote: “It is impossible to fully turn from your sins, or to turn from sinning. The gospel has nothing to do with “turning from your sins” to be saved.”
Jesus disagrees with you.
At that time some people were there who told Jesus about the Galileans whom Pilate had killed while they were offering sacrifices to God. JESUS ANSWERED them, “Because those Galileans were killed in that way, do you think it proves that they were worse sinners than all other Galileans? No indeed! And I tell you that IF YOU DO NOT TURN FROM YOUR SINS, YOU WILL ALL DIE as they did. What about those eighteen people in Siloam who were killed when the tower fell on them? Do you suppose this proves that they were worse than all the other people living in Jerusalem? No indeed! And I tell you that IF YOU DO NOT TURN FROM YOUR SINS, YOU WILL ALL DIE as they did.”
~•Luke 13:1-5
We believe in Jesus Christ and we are convicted and we turn from our sins, just like Jesus said and just like is said in 1 John 3:3-10….
“Everyone who has this hope in Christ KEEPS HIMSELF PURE, just as Christ is pure.
Whoever sins is guilty of breaking God’s law, because sin is a breaking of the law. You know that Christ appeared in order to take away sins, and that there is no sin in him. So everyone who lives in union with Christ DOES NOT CONTINUE TO SIN; but whoever continues to sin has never seen him or known him.
LET NO ONE DECEIVE YOU, my children! Whoever does what is right is righteous, just as Christ is righteous. WHOEVER CONTINUES TO SIN BELONGS TO THE DEVIL, because the Devil has sinned from the very beginning. The Son of God appeared for this very reason, to destroy what the Devil had done.
Those who are children of God DO NOT CONTINUE TO SIN, for God’s very nature is in them; and because God is their Father, THEY CANNOT CONTINUE TO SIN. Here is the clear difference between God’s children and the Devil’s children: those who do not do what is right or do not love others are not God’s children.”
Thank God for 1 John 2:1
“My little children, these things I write to you, SO THAT YOU MAY NOT SIN. AND IF ANYONE SINS, we have an Advocate with the Father, Jesus Christ the righteous.”
The thing is, John knows we might slip in thought, in a word, maybe even a deed, but we do not CONTINUE LIVING IN OUR SINS. I don’t turn back to the very things Jesus set me free from!
Glory be to God. Thank you Jesus my LORD.
(Forgive the caps, I used it for emphasis, not shouting at you dear Holly. 🙂 )
Ray Comfort does a wonderful work spreading the gospel of Jesus Christ. First giving people God’s law so that they can understand why they need to be saved and be under the blood covering of Jesus Christ. There is nothing false about the gospel he preaches.
I’m not here to debate, just letting scripture speak for itself.
God bless you in Jesus’ Holy Name.
Amanda, welcome and thanks for your comment.
I would encourage you to read the same passages that you have quoted in the King James Version of the Bible. The version you are quoting has changed the meaning of these passages.
If we had to turn from sins to be saved, eternal life would no longer be a gift. Instead, it would be a trade.
Please review our series of articles on “repentance” if you would like to know more.
Amanda, I appreciate your wanting to believe that Ray does a wonderful job of spreading the gospel, but sadly, he does not. He is a false teacher and a deceiver, and I am to mark and avoid Him (Rom 16:17-18), and so are all the brethren. I pray you will do your proving (1 Thess 5:21) so that you will not be guilty of misleading others possibly to their death, very grave. I’m sure that’s not what you want.
May I please suggest using a Bible that is actually translated. Good News ‘translation’ is not a translation at all, but a loose paraphrase. Do you really want to rely on someone giving you a synopsized version of what the Word really says? I don’t plan on debating anyone. I am here to stand on and for the truth of God’s Word.
Luke 13:3, nowhere in the original language nor in the KJV, nor in the NKJV, or NASB (not saying they are my preference) but they do not change the word ‘repent’ to TURN FROM SIN, because it’s not there, and that is adding to Scripture (see Proverbs 30:6 and Rev 22:18).
Does repent = turn from sin? No! God repented more than anyone in the OT, did He ‘turn from sin’?
Listen my friend, we are all responsible for the correct handling (or mishandling of God’s Word). I pray that you will study further about what the simple gospel is and believe it. Turning from sin is a work, so is confessing your sin (in order to be saved). These may be good things, even righteous things, but the Bible tells us it is not by works of righteousness we have been saved (Titus 3). Jonah 3:10 God recognizes that the Ninevites have turned from their evil ways and He calls it ‘works’. Can we be saved by works?
You are not here to debate, so let me ask you, what is the Biblical gospel?
What must one do in order to be saved?
May the Lord bless you with His truth, and a willingness to hear what He has to say in His Word. Holly
We are saved by grace through faith alone.
Jesus said to her, “I am the resurrection and the life. He who believes in Me, though he may die, he shall live.” ~John 11:25
Amen, so did Jesus say, He who believes in me AND turns from His sin? Did Jesus leave something out?
Holly,
Can you give amanda a copy of the book? Every passage she mentioned is in there.
Preston
Sure Preston. I have to think on where I put it, or will you email me another. My new grandma brain is disheveled 🙂
Here is another good article you might consider prayerfully Amanda.
http://expreacherman.com/2015/03/30/no-good-news-from-ray-comfort/
One must be careful not to make the word “believe” or the words “believe on” or “believe in” more than that they actually mean. The last conversation I had with a (now former) pastor made it clear to me that he didn’t understand nor believe the gospel. He told me that to “believe on” the Lord Jesus Christ means more than simple belief. When asked to elaborate he was not able to give any kind of convincing evidence.
Anything beyond simple belief and putting one’s faith in Jesus and the atoning work he did for the forgiveness of sins devolves into works for salvation, and believing another gospel, which isn’t a gospel at all.
Tit 2:11- 12 For the grace of God that brings salvation has appeared to all men, Teaching us that, denying ungodliness and worldly lusts, we should live soberly, righteously, and godly, in this present world.
Nobody likes with being confronted with their sins not the sinner and not the Christian. Each finds it discomforting and even insulting at times. But true grace the grace that saves, the one that shows the mercy and justice of God in equal proportions, teaches repentance. When we come to Christ we are made positionally righteous, legally we are righteous in justice system, that s why righteousness is imputed to us. It s like if a billion dollars were to be deposited in your account today, you would be a billionaire right from that moment. But then it will take a while for you to start living like a billionaire. Likewise we are righteous legally when we accept Christ, but we are now called to live out this righteousness, This is the call to repentance that grace makes. You can only live like a billionaire if you have billions in your account likewise we can live the righteous life not by effort but by the righteousness of Christ credited to our account. Repentance is not a call to get saved by works it is a call to live saved by the power of Christ. It is a daily work that goes on in us and it is God who works it out daily as he reveals the things we need to repent of by his word and helps us by His Spirit according to His will and our degree of submission to that will. There is a different between involvement and works. The fact that you are involved in something does not mean it is by your own strength. If it were so then getting saved even by faith in Christ will also be of works in a sense that you had to confess first. It was an act on your path that connected you to a stream of mercy that is kept ever flowing by the sole work of Christ. Confessing Christ was of your will and your choice and your act, the Holy Spirit didn’t force you at best He only persuaded you and aided you by working on your heart and conscience so might see the light of the gospel and come to Christ. Repentance is same, our effort is involved in willing and seeking his power to do and in actually venturing out to walk in righteousness, waters that all believe they will sink in, because that is where Christ stands and that is where grace calls us. And do not think that in willing and venturing to do, you rely on work for you venture because you believe that as Christ is so has he made you. For it is God which works in you both to will and to do of his good pleasure. -Phil 2:13. Grace shows us how Christ lived like us and endured God’s wrath unto the death, and afterwards calls us to repentance, were we live like Christ and overcome the world’s temptation. Not of our own might although were are involved and not of our own strength although we resist and not of works although our effort is demanded but it is all of Christ tearing through the dead flesh of the old man, through layers of old habits until the Christ on our inside legally and posrtionally is revealed on the outside practically and the eyes of the world can now see his nature on the outside and calls us for what we are- Christians, like Christ, not as a mere title but as the identity of our being by reason of the nature of our lives.
.
Hi Samuel. Repentance is a change of mind about something. Grace teaches us how to live. The question is, are we looking into that perfect law of liberty and being blessed? Or are we cooperating to add to our faith (2 Pet 1:5-11)? If we are, we will not be barren or unfruitful. Too many are bewitched (Gal 3) and go back into bondage, hindered from running the race (Gal 4-5) because we have listened to those who try to get us to finish in the flesh. We don’t want to mix up what SHOULD happen with what COULD happen if we don’t cooperate.
I like something Pastor Tom Cucuzza said, and I’m only paraphrasing. If believers doing good works were automatic, the Bible would be a whole lot shorter.
Tom Stegall mentions this list in his book, “Must Faith Endure for Salvation to be sure”.
“The Bible actually teaches that it is possible for one who is eternally saved by God’s grace to:
1) Commit idolatry and apostasy (1 Kgs. 11:1-10)
2) Believe only for a while (Luke 8:13)
3) Not continue in the Word of Christ (Jn. 8:31)
4) Not abide in Christ (John 15:1-8)
5) Become disqualified in the race of the Christian life (1 Cor. 9:24-27)
6) Resist God’s chastening and correcting to the point of physical death (1 Cor. 11:30-32)
7) Stray from the faith (1 Timothy 1:5-6)
8) Shipwreck faith (1 Timothy 1:18-20)
9) Fall away from the faith (1 Timothy 4:1-3)
10) Deny the faith (1 Timothy 5:8)
11) Cast off initial faith and follow Satan (1 Timothy 5:12-15)
12) Stray from the faith by loving money (1 Timothy 6:9-10)
13) Stray from the faith by professing false doctrine (1 Timothy 6:20-21)
14) Deny Christ and be faithless (2 Timothy 2:11-13)
15) Have faith overthrown (2 Timothy 2:14-18)
So let’s make sure we keep the gospel clear so one can receive the free gift of eternal life. And let’s learn to make disciples of believers, by feeding His sheep (if we love Him — Jn 21).
In Christ, Holly
If believers don’t cooperate to ‘maintain good works’ (Titus 3:8), many things can happen.
These are some of the things that we CAN lose or suffer from if we do not cooperate to abide in the Vine, and remain in His Word.
Loss of Fellowship with God (1 John 1:3, 6,9)
Loss of Fellowship with others (1 John 1:3, 7)
Loss of Fullness of joy in or walk (1 John 1:4)
Loss of Rewards at the judgment seat of Christ (1 Cor 3:10-16)
Bring judgment upon ourselves in this lifetime (1 Cor 11:29)
Loss of our physical life (1 Cor 5:5; Acts 5:1-11, 1 Cor 11:30)
Loss of our health, be weak or sickly (1 Cor 11:30)
Loss of our testimony or justification before men (James 2, Titus 3:8)
We can shame the name of Christ for sins named among us (Eph 5:3).
Face chastening (1 Cor 11:32; Heb 12:5-6)
Face consequences for our actions (Gal 6:7-9)
Others face things because of us, including loss of knowing Christ. (Gal 6:9)
We can stray from the truth, and be dishonorable – (2 Tim 2:18-20)
Being ashamed at His appearing – (1 John 2:28)
We can lose the joy of our salvation (Ps 51:12)
All I can say is, there will be a lot of demons in your “Heaven” because the Bible is very clear that the demons also “believe”. So, if that’s all it takes, have fun in your idea of “Heaven.”
Dale Little, I note your sarcasm, but I’d exhort you to see what the Lord’s Word gives as the truth of heaven, vs. my idea or yours. There is only one truth, and we want to be so careful not to wrongly divide His Word. If you will examine that Scripture prayerfully, with His approval in mind (versus any preconceived notions or teachings from men like Ray Comfort, who place burdens/loads on people too heavy to bear). Take the whole counsel of God, I think you might find a few things.
Demons are fallen angels. They desire to look into the things of salvation, but it is not offered to them.
Christ died for the world, and did not shed His blood for them, they are condemned, and their end already determined since they made their choice of who to follow.
Unto whom it was revealed, that not unto themselves, but unto us they did minister the things, which are now reported unto you by them, that have preached the gospel unto you with the Holy Ghost sent down from heaven; which things the angels desire to look into. 1 Pet 1:12
What do the demons believe? That there is one God, they know this, for He is real. And why do they tremble? Because they know their fate. Jesus is their Lord. He is Lord of all, yet they are still doomed. God has not promised them salvation, nor anyone who simply believes that there is one God. So often people misunderstand context in that passage and try to somehow prove that these believers, brethren, beloved were somehow not saved even though by the Holy Spirit’s inspiration, they are identified as possessing eternal life. Yet they were behaving very badly and not acting out there faith in the sight of men.
We need to believe who Jesus is, and what Jesus did for us.
Do you really understand that it is a free gift Dale?
Does the love of Christ constrain you? Or is it finishing in the flesh that proves you are saved?
I pray you have understood the true gospel. Christ died for every man, woman and child — He took away the sins of the world — the only way for us to be reconciled to the Father and forgiven all our sins.
It is solely what HE has done by dying for our sins, (He paid the penalty in full), and after being buried for 3 days, He rose again, proving He is God as He has the power to take His life back up again. We who have believed have already been buried with Him and risen again with Him by the baptism of the Spirit, which we received the moment we believed. Christ is our firstfruits, the proof that we who are in Christ will too be raised to eternal life. What can you do Dale? Believe on the Lord Jesus Christ and you shall be saved. Don’t lean on the wisdom of these men who preach another gospel.
Dale,
did you know that the person who says “even the devils believe and tremble” is actually called “VAIN” by James???? and James is correct, it is a “vain” and self righteous statement.
James creates a fictional character. how do we know? In verse 18, James says. “yea A MAN may say”. It is THIS MAN that says the next couple of lines. James responds to THIS MAN in verse 20; calling him “vain” for saying it.
18 Yea, DALE may say, Thou hast faith, and I have works: shew me thy faith without thy works, and I will shew thee my faith by my works.
19 Thou believest that there is one God; thou doest well: the devils also believe, and tremble.
20 But wilt thou know, O VAIN DALE, that faith without works is dead?
Because of “works for salvationists” in our pulpits, people have NOT understood that they are repeating the words of “a man” that James calls “vain” and not James.
with respect,
Dale,
Demons were not part of the unlimited atonement, so they can believe all they want, but they can’t be saved. That is a weak argument that most works for salvation people use and your interpretation is anything but clear. James was attempting to get already saved people to live right to have a good testimony before men. He wasn’t telling them they might not be saved. The demons made their choice for eternal judgement when they were already in Heaven and left their abode. (Jude 1:6) People, however, have a choice to believe the gospel.
Brad
Demons have already been judged and are awaiting sentence , some demons are so evil they are in chains . God has them bound as a witness to all the demons that they can only go so far.
so a demons response to That they know there is only 1 God is Trembling .
Believer souls on/in Christ Jesus by Grace through Faith are not to be motivated by Fear for fear has torment . God has not given us the spirit of fear.
That is what you are trying to inflict upon those who read your post Dale Little and are attempting to make your fears our fears . That’s not going to happen that’s on you Dale Little I pray you seek the Truth of The Gospel .
Pe 2:4 For if God spared not the angels that sinned, but cast them down to hell, and delivered them into chains of darkness, to be reserved unto judgment;
Jud 1:6 And the angels which kept not their first estate, but left their own habitation, he hath reserved in everlasting chains under darkness unto the judgment of the great day.
My brethren
Jas 2:1 My brethren, have not the faith of our Lord Jesus Christ, the Lord of glory, with respect of persons.
Dale you also demonstrate that you don’t have the slightest concept of bible study .
please read James chapter 2 again Praying for wisdom and understanding
Context
Content
Compare
Conclude
profit,
Jas 2:14 What doth it profit, my brethren, though a man say he hath faith, and have not works? can faith save him?
justified justified
Gal 2:16 Knowing that a man is not justified by the works of the law, but by the faith of Jesus Christ, even we have believed in Jesus Christ, that we might be justified by the faith of Christ, and not by the works of the law: for by the works of the law shall no flesh be justified.
dont confuse the means with the results
believer souls are either spiritual or carnal , Growth is separate and growth is halted with perverted justification
Thank you Curtis, I do hope and pray that Dale will read and consider the Word you shared. In Christ, Holly
What do you do with 1John chapter 2? It’s pretty clear. If a person is born again he cannot go on sinning. Meaning “practice” sin as a HABIT. If you’re cheating on your wife, murdering for money as a hit man, watching porn every single day, blaspheming God’s name as much as you want, stealing everything whenever you want. IT’S PROBABLY A REALLY REALLY GOOD SIGN YOU DON’T KNOW GOD! Jesus is recorded in Scripture telling people to “stop your sinning our a worse thing may happen to you”. A true child of God will not be “looking for opportunities to sin” which is Ray’s point. A Christian, a true Christian, falls into sin. A hypocrite dives into sin. Loves to sin and doesn’t want to stop. Refuses to stop. 1John makes it clear. 1John 2:10 this is how we know who the children of God are and who the children of the devil are. Anyone who does not do what is right is not a child of God nor is anyone who does not love his brother”. Obviously we are not talking sinless perfection which Ray NEVER even suggests. We are talking about our everyday habits. If the vast majority of your behavior is sinful, according to 1John 2:10 you are of the devil. If the vast majority of you behavior is righteous this is indication that you know God “IF your trust is in Christ”. It’s not work based but 1John makes it CRYSTAL CLEAR AS DOES A LARGE PORTION OF GOD’S WORD. If you are born again there will be evidence of it. If you were tried in court would there be sufficient evidence to convict you of being a Christian? AGAIN, BECAUSE YOU PEOPLE ARE STUBBORN AND TAKE THINGS OUT OF CONTEXT. I am in no way shape or form saying ANYONE HAD SINLESS PERFECTION, we are to be imitators of Christ not Christ Himself. We strive to be LIKE Christ but NO ONE could ever even measure up. But we do our best.
Bill – thank you for visiting. I don’t think the Word tells us it is practicing sin, but doing sin even one time. I know for a fact it doesn’t say ‘practice sin as a habit’, nor ‘looking for opportunities to sin’. Nor have I found any suggest of a contrast between a true Christian ‘falling into sin’ vs. a false one ‘diving into sin’. Nor does the Word suggest if a ‘vast majority’ of what you do that you are of the devil. I suggest this for you. This may help you rightly divide, because truth be told, there is no way you know if you are good enough right now. If you don’t know you are saved by what you believe (1 John 5:9-13) then chances are you have not understood the free gift of eternal life.
Your best is not good enough (Is 64:6). Only Jesus is good enough (1 Cor 1:30-31).
I highly recommend this by Pastor Arnold.
[youtube https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FnIH_UTMrys&w=480&h=360%5D
We all know those who say they believe and may behave abominably, or maybe not as well as we would wish.
Here is a list of some of those bad things believers can do. Tom Stegall mentions this in his book, “Must Faith Endure for Salvation to be sure”.
“The Bible actually teaches that it is possible for one who is eternally saved by God’s grace to:
1) Commit idolatry and apostasy (1 Kgs. 11:1-10)
2) Believe only for a while (Luke 8:13)
3) Not continue in the Word of Christ (Jn. 8:31)
4) Not abide in Christ (John 15:1-8)
5) Become disqualified in the race of the Christian life (1 Cor. 9:24-27)
6) Resist God’s chastening and correcting to the point of physical death (1 Cor. 11:30-32)
7) Stray from the faith (1 Timothy 1:5-6)
8) Shipwreck faith (1 Timothy 1:18-20)
9) Fall away from the faith (1 Timothy 4:1-3)
10) Deny the faith (1 Timothy 5:8)
11) Cast off initial faith and follow Satan (1 Timothy 5:12-15)
12) Stray from the faith by loving money (1 Timothy 6:9-10)
13) Stray from the faith by professing false doctrine (1 Timothy 6:20-21)
14) Deny Christ and be faithless (2 Timothy 2:11-13)
15) Have faith overthrown (2 Timothy 2:14-18)
We need to cooperate to abide in the vine AND abide in His Word, to be effective and to grow as students/disciples. Don’t abide in the words of men, who use excellency of speech and wisdom of their own words to seduce you regarding the gospel (1 Cor 2:1-5), or corrupt your minds from the simplicity that is in Christ (2 Cor 11:3-4) Jesus loves the bride He gave Himself for, in spite of themselves.
In our eyes, we think God is a respecter of persons based on how good they are (He is not!). We cannot finish in the flesh (Gal 3), that which He began in the Spirit. We need to submit to God so that He will work in us.
Bill,
You said: “If you are born again there will be evidence of it. If you were tried in court would there be sufficient evidence to convict you of being a Christian?”
Tell that to the Corinthian believers who were dying in their habitual sin, but were still saved. (1 Cor 3:15) (1 Cor 11:30) It doesn’t look like they had any “evidence.” I’m sure Ray would have called them unsaved. He loves to play judge on his little stump.
So, what exactly does this evidence that you speak of look like and how much proves somebody is saved? No Christian could ever know, so there could be no way a Christian could have assurance of salvation with your type of thinking. Therefore, your “evidence” explanation immediately falls apart.
1 John is about living by the spirit for assurance so we can “know” / stay confident in our salvation. Not that living right proves our salvation, but when we do live right, the enemy can’t get a foothold and make us “feel” unsaved. The chapter concludes by saying “These things I have written to you who BELIEVE…” This whole chapter is for SAVED believers so they will live right for assurance of their salvation. It was NOT written for them to BE or to STAY saved. They were already saved.
I went through the whole way of the master class and handed out the dollar bills. Never once did I go through their spiel, and I spoke to the down and out people about Grace not about Ray’s skewed interpretation of repentance. I knew from day one they were off, but I was curious and stuck it out because a friend of mine (so I thought) was co leader of the class. They hated me and kicked me out of their group and removed me from their email list. Ray Comfort has a Cash Cow and refuses to listen to correct doctrine. I’ve written Living Waters over and over, but they refuse to repent. They will have to answer to the Lord for the false Gospel they continue to spew. They are turning people off with their judgemental Gospel.
You can’t out sin Grace. It’s impossible.
In Christ,
Brad
Thanks for sharing your experience, Brad. I was moved by it and it’s helpful and illustrative. I’ve had a bit of a struggle associating Romans 16:18 (“For they that are such serve not our Lord Jesus Christ, but their own belly; and by good words and fair speeches deceive the hearts of the simple”) with Ray Comfort, but your “cash cow” comment seems fitting in terms of the “their own belly” reference.
Thanks Fryingpan, Yes, Ray loves to listen to himself, and he uses his groups to prey on down and out people and make them feel bad about themselves. These group are just helping him with his retirement.
Brad
proper bible study should be :
Context
Content
Compare
Conclude
1 John is primarily for fellowship
Bill,
It is clear by your post that you are not interested in correction but want to be confirmed in your own opinion and defend a religious personality.
This blog here that Holly has, is exposing apostate doctrine a false gospel.
I see this over and over how souls try to defend their teachers instead of proclaiming the Gospel.
I myself was under the influence of another gospel. I do wonder if souls know they are doing it, but I remind myself how I was in error thinking I was living the Christian life, seeking approbation of God by my works for sanctification.
Of course a soul SHOULD live in obedience to Gods Word allowing Jesus to live through them from their POSITION in Christ. Knowing their Position and possession apart from a souls condition.
Any changes in a soul’s life not wrought by the Spirit of God is WORKS.
2Ti 3:16 All scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness:
2Ti 3:17 That the man of God may be perfect, throughly furnished unto all good works.
Thank you Curtis, I agree!
Quoted by Tom Cucuzza in a sermon I listened to yesterday.
My good friend Jack Weaver used to say ‘There SHOULD be a visible
difference of the invisible difference”….SHOULD BE.
NOTE THE FOUR FOLD PURPOSE OF I JOHN: Written to believers
1. That their joy might be full. 1:4
2. To guard them against sin. 2:1
3. To warn them of false teachers. 4 :1
4. To strengthen them in the faith and in assurance. 5:4,13
Thanks Curtis, another one would be so that their fellowship with God and other believers would continue to be strengthened. (1 Jn 1:3-7).
Hi Holly. I read through your blog, and I am a person who has heard Paul washer and Ray comfort very much. I would just like to know something. Jesus and John the Baptist began their ministry asking people to repent. Peter began his ministry in the Pentecost saying Repent and believe. I really don’t think these preachers are advocating that we completely are free from sin and stop sinning by our effort with our repentance. I think repentance is an act of faith – Changing our mind about sin, and turning to God for mercy. It would definitely be error to place trust in our own effort of turning from sin, rather realize that we are sinful, change our mind and attitude about sin (agree with what the Lord says about sin), and trust in the perfect sacrifice of Christ for the forgiveness of sins. Would like to hear your thoughts on this.
In Christ.
Phillip, thanks for your comment and thanks for joining us here.
The trouble with people like Paul Washer and Ray Comfort is their incorrect definition of repentance. Ray Comfort identifies it as turning from all sin. Paul Washer describes it as a continuing work of remorse, turning from sin and in so doing makes the receipt of eternal life a long time work of the person. But let me share a portion of an article from a friend of ours, Ron Shea. (See our several part series here).
From part 2 on Repentance and Salvation in Scripture.
Common Myths About Repentance
Myth #1:
Repentance is directed to sin, either by way of heartfelt remorse, or by way of turning from one’s sins.
Fact:
Sin is not the inherent object of repentance. One can repent about anything. To demonstrate this, one need only consider the following facts:
1. The person who repents more often than any other person in the Old Testament is God! If sin is the automatic and intrinsic object of repentance, and means to “turn from one’s sins,” we have a “God” who turns from His sins! This fact alone should serve notice that there is something seriously wrong with the belief that “repentance” means “turning from sin.“
2. Even more troubling, the person who refuses to repent more often than any other person in the Old Testament is God! Therefore, if repentance means “turning from one’s sin,” we not only have a “God” who frequently turns from His sins often, we also have a God who frequently refuses to turn from His sins! To quote the astronaut who returned to the lunar module only to learn that he had locked the door behind him during his moon walk . . . “Houston, we have a problem.”
3. One can even repent from goodness to sin! Plutarch, the Greek historian, writes of two criminals who “spared a child, and then afterwards, repented and sought to slay it.” This is not repenting from sin, it is repenting to sin! The very opposite meaning so often ascribed to “repentance” in common culture.
4. Finally, and amazingly, the phrase “repent of your sins” never occurs in Scripture!! That’s correct! Never! To confirm this, simply take out a Strong’s Concordance, and look up every passage where the words “repent,” or “repented,” occur in Scripture. You will never see the phrase “repent of your sins” in the Bible. Yet somehow, a phrase that never occurs in Scripture has become the central message of the gospel for all too many evangelists, ministers and theologians!
One of the best explanations of repentance, I think, comes from Watchman Nee, he says, “We can now understand what repentance really means in the Bible. Repentance is a change of mind. But it is always used in reference to the deeds of the past and is never used in reference to conduct in the future. Repentance is a change in ones own mind. ——-“If we misunderstand repentance to think that it is a change of our future behaviour, we are absolutely ignorant of God’s salvation. God’s salvation never attempts to improve the Adamic nature. If repentance referred to the future, it would mean that old Adam and the fleshly man still have the possibility of improvement and advancement. But the Lord Jesus said, ‘That which is born of the flesh is flesh’ (John 3:6) —-if repentance refers to the future, then the foundation of God’s salvation is completely torn down. —- Therefore repentance in the Bible does not refer to future behaviour. Rather it refers to a change in concept concerning our past”.
Mark, the problem with that quote, is Nee’s understanding of repentance. We can repent about the past most certainly. Think on repentance from dead works. I might realize that my Catholicism which I previously thought would save me cannot. So I have a change of mind when I believe.
Watchman Nee taught four different ‘blessings’ not only the errant second blessing, he believed in a separate baptism of the Holy Spirit. He was into Catholic mysticism and extra-biblical revelation. He was also into the holiness movement and taught partial rapture theory. They also got quite cultish with their authority, church members being required to read his books.
So most certainly I could not recommend either Watchman Nee or Witness Lee.
In Christ, Holly
Thanks Holly
You’re welcome Mark, always appreciate your graciousness in receiving info.
A bit off topic, but the names “Watchman Nee” and “Witness Nee” not only lend themselves to cultish red flags, but they remind me of the Church Lady quote, “Yes, we like ourselves, don’t we?”
I like Ray Comfort.
I did not interpret “turn from your sins” part the same way you did.
I think this explains how I understood it pretty well.
(link removed by the administrators–hyper Calvinist).
Brandon, thank you for joining us and sharing your thoughts. I hope to convince you to repent about Ray Comfort. 🙂
Ray Comfort is likable no doubt. Affable, charming accent, seemingly has a knowledge of the gospel and a zeal for God. But does he (Rom 10:2-3)? I believe He has not submitted to the righteousness of Christ but is still seeking to establish his own, along with leading others down that works path.
I would have to disagree though, I didn’t ‘interpret’ what Ray stated on multiple occasions, which is turn from ALL of your sins. But even if he didn’t say ALL (which he did and have have screenshots of), his preaching says just that over and over, he is a law teacher. I have heard him speak with Joyce Meyers, and it is clear they both think they have basically stopped sinning (btw, not good enough Rev 21:27). But I believe there is enough evidence in writing and on his youtube videos to see it is clear he expects a change of behavior to occur (works), just as the hyper Calvinist Matt Slick does (whose website you used for a definition of repentance).
Slick starts off with a correct definition then departs to his own thinking vs. truth:
Slick says, “Repentance is properly understood to mean a change of mind”
Would have been true if he hadn’t wanted to add to God’s Word.
But then he tells you what it is you must repenting from in order to be given the free gift of eternal life.
He says it is “a change of the intention from wanting to sin to not wanting to sin”
He also adds that this desire to stop wanting to sin “results in a change in action“.
And worse?
He adds this:
“It involves the decision to make a change of behavior and/or attitude about something.” (Does this set off any bells for you? (Eph 2:8-9; Rom 11:6; Rom 4:4-6)
These are subtle but definite WORKS changes to the true definition of repentance. He gives the meaning of the Old Testament Hebrew for repent/repentance and concludes this:
“As you can see, there are a variety of ways to translate the words; but the basic meaning is to turn–to have an attitude of change so as to not do wrong again.”
If Slick was right, God repented more than any one in the Old Testament, so God turned, had a change of attitude so as ‘not to do wrong again’? This thinking is works + no matter how you look at it I’m afraid. I also have had the sad occasion of having several days of discussions with Slick. I say sad because I feel not only for others, but also for him as I believe he is a deceiver and also being deceived. I watched him bait people in order to get them to sin with their words. He came into their group, he called them ‘anti’s’ (meaning non-Calvinist), he said they were full of so much hatred, that they couldn’t (not didn’t) understand calvinism (they generally knock other’s intellectual capabilities), that we ‘looked down our nose’ at Calvinists, that we ‘misrepresent what they say’ then we ‘have the gall to say they are deceived’. He said that our belief that God gave man free will to believe or reject Him is humanism.
I have conversation after conversation screen shotted. He challenged the room to a debate after coming in with he and seemingly some friends who were calling him ‘bro’ and answering for him in posts. After one verbally noted his manipulation of others in the room, she asked him his gospel (once again as we both had several times).
He started off sounding as if he knew the gospel. He covered Jesus dying for sinners (didn’t show integrity and add that he doesn’t believe Jesus died for all). He used the word ‘world’ regarding who Jesus died for, (now that is really dishonest knowing the majority of people will read world to actually mean ‘whole world’ as it does in 1 John 2:2). But he doesn’t reveal that. So has he renounced the hidden things of dishonesty, or is he walking in craftiness? If Matt Slick really believes Calvinism IS the gospel (as Spurgeon also said) then by not preaching it ALL, he is handling the word of God deceitfully. If he believes Calvinism IS the gospel, he is not making manifest the truth (that he believes is truth), and is not commending himself to every man’s conscience in the sight of God.
(So keeping in mind he left out the pivotal points in the Calvinist gospel) He then said you have to:
1. Ask Jesus to forgive you of your sins. (he actually cited Matt 9:1-8 for this)
2. Receive Christ and the sacrifice He made.
3. Turn from your sins.
4. Pray to Jesus.
5. Seek Him.
6. Ask Him to save you.
So the above may not seem bad to some, because they have heard some or all over and over in their traditional churches, but we don’t see the apostles telling the crowd to do this when they preached the gospel. We don’t see Jesus telling them they must ask Him to forgive them, He says He said it so that they might KNOW that He has the power to forgive them of their sins.
In the gospel of John, over and over and over, we are told to BELIEVE upon Him to be saved. The apostles preached the gospel, and the response in order to be baptized? They must have BELIEVED it. They didn’t have to TURN FROM THEIR SINS (How does an ungodly sinner do this by the way? Rom 5:6-8). We receive Christ when we BELIEVE on His name. What you may not have seen in Matt Slick’s gospel is the poor souls that are standing out there in their reformed teaching, and the gospel really isn’t the power of God unto salvation, because in Calvinism, it’s not the god of this age that has men blinded from the gospel (2 Cor 4), it’s their god who blinds men from the gospel (yes I purposely did NOT capitalize god there).
Listen please… our God does not blind men from the glorious gospel of Christ. Christ is God and deserves all Glory, God is glorified when men believe, so He would not blind men and limit His glory, God does not fight against Himself. so why would He pre-select a majority of men before they were ever born, never having done wrong, to go to hell with no chance of ever being able to hear and believe the gospel? Just is not the truth.
I have already given quite a long answer 🙂 It’s not just that I feel pretty strongly about Mr. Slick, I pray the man might consider some of the contradictions his religion has with the Word of God. But I know God cares for you, and so do I. So I pray you might prayerfully consider these things. I know Calvinism appeals to the intellectual man, but 1 Cor 2:1-5 shows us those things are not important.
And I, brethren, when I came to you, came not with excellency of speech or of wisdom, declaring unto you the testimony of God.
For I determined not to know any thing among you, save Jesus Christ, and him crucified.
And I was with you in weakness, and in fear, and in much trembling.
And my speech and my preaching was not with enticing words of man’s wisdom, but in demonstration of the Spirit and of power:
that your faith should not stand in the wisdom of men, but in the power of God.
If you are trapped in loadship or Calvinism, and you know Christ, I do pray you’ll seek the Lord and His Word in this matter so that Satan won’t have your gospel rendered ineffective as another gospel will not save. (As many of us here have experienced over the years and the truth has set us free indeed).
In Christ, Holly
On Ray Comfort’s “Quick Reference Card”, his main point of the gospel is not quite correct as a teaching tool, it may seem I am nit picking but I believe it is important. Under “Cross” he says “Jesus suffered for our sins, died and rose from the dead”, so what is wrong with that? Jesus did suffer for our sins. The Bible says that Christ suffered for our sins. Peter said, “thou art the Christ the Son of the living God”. So it was Christ who died for our sins which the Bible clearly teaches. Our job is to show that Christ died for our sins and that Jesus is the Christ. The gospel is that Jesus is the Christ the Son of God that died for our sins. If we don’t emphasise that Jesus is the Christ the Son of God we are missing the point of the gospel. John said, “These are written that you might believe that Jesus is the Christ, the Son of God, and that believing you might have life through His Name”. Under “Repentance” he says “Confess and forsake all sin”.
Thank you Mark, not nitpicky at all, it is yet another witness that Ray Comfort preaches confessing sin and forsaking all sin as part of receiving the free gift of eternal life. Funny thing is as Ray preaches the law to supposedly point people to Christ, he obviously has not examined all of the law, as #75/613 commandments of the law (which can never be used to justify a person) is this:
‘When a man or woman commits any sin that men commit in unfaithfulness against the Lord, and that person is guilty,
then he shall confess the sin which he has committed. He shall make restitution for his trespass in full, plus one-fifth of it, and give it to the one he has wronged.’ Numbers 5:6b-7
We cannot add a work of the law towards receiving the free gift of salvation. In Christ <3
Thanks for posting Mark
I have been driving passed a local church billboard that says ” Jesus came to save us from our sins” and something about that just didn’t sit right with me Now I know why from your post .
Jesus the Christ came to suffer and die for our sins to pay our sin debt
it is what is left unsaid that does as much spiritual harm to a believer soul and stunts growth as it what is said
just like all false teachers Ray Comfort is one of them , They Can not deliver a clear Gospel they are carnal moral ,spiritually drunk or unsaved
Rom 5:6 For when we were yet without strength, in due time Christ died for the ungodly.
Curtis, They get that from Matt 5:21, And she shall bring forth a son, and thou shalt call his name JESUS: for he shall save his people from their sins.
But what many of them ‘mean’ is Jesus came to save us from our sins, not to allow us to keep sinning. I see many of them adding their own little lines to the back of that verse, and with no fear and trembling (Is 66:2).
I started reading this blog with great joy but the longer it wont on the more confused i got as to what everyone was saying……or trying to say i should say. All i know is that i am born again because i believe the Lord Jesus Christ died for my sins at Calvary and i know that i am a wicked, vile sinner deserving of hell. I have not experienced any grandiose experience with God like him tearing open the sky and waving His hands at me and nor have i experienced huge changes within myself but i have had changes. Like a sensitivity to sin, a desire to read His word more, etc etc etc….i just dont feel like going into them here. I dont know what “positional justification” means or any of those big words and phrases. Why do people make the gospel so hard to believe? I try to steer clear of most internet preachers these days except for Ralph Yankee Arnold. I feel in my spirit he is truly a man of God and is teaching the correct gospel. When i start to wander and listen to other preachers i get to doubt my own salvation so i have to be careful to whom i listen to. I think “holly” is the only one who understands the gospel out of all the people i have read comments on this page so kukdos to her. I hope you folks can manage to get over your issues with each other. Jesus bless you.
Steve, you might also enjoy reading some of the posts at ExPreacherman.com.
Thanks. John
https://expreacherman.com
Hello:
I didnt realize you were part of this website and expreacherman. I already read that one too and i love it. Thank you for it.
Jesus bless you
Steve, I am glad you find both websites to be a blessing!
I’m really glad i found this blog. I have been discouraged lately. I keep watching testimonies of people on youtube and most of them say that when they came to Christ they had a miraculous encounter with Jesus or that they changed instantaneously. I have never had experiences like that so it leads me to doubt my salvation or lack thereof. In the past i have said to God “Okay God since i’m not born again i’m not going to fool myself anymore so goodbye”….but a few hours later or the next day i come back to God and say i am sorry and that i didnt mean it. I believe Jesus is the only way to heaven and that he died to save me….a horrid, wicked sinner who deserves hell. I dont consider myself religious at all but i just consider myself born again even though i have not had any great encounters with God. I have experienced change within myself but its not changes people would really recognize. When i am tempted to sin i feel the holy spirit wooing me and telling me dont do it. If i do it anyway i feel horrible for days. I feel like i’m banging my head against a wall. Any thoughts, advice or encouragement or discouragement would be welcome. Jesus bless
Steve, I felt for years there was really no noticeable change, and still feel that way sometimes. But our endurance is to stay in His Word and abide in Him. We fail but the beautiful thing about Jesus is that we can pick right back up and begin again.
The best thing I ever did is just to try to spend more time in His Word more consistently and to be prayerful as I read and studied. His Word washes us (Eph 5:26) and revives and strengthens us (Ps 119:25, 28). It brings light into our situation (Ps 119:105, 130. It counsels and gives us knowledge (Prov 22:17-21), it sanctifies us practically (John 17:17). We are forgiven forever, we were perfected forever by one sacrifice (Heb 10:10,14). So we have been forgiven for all sins past, present and future at the cross (Col 2:13-15).
But we ourselves need help in the fellowship department, so confess your sins, and He is faithful and just to forgive us (1 Jn 1:9) that is a practical picture of feet washing of the disciples I believe (Jn 13). The disciples were already clean, but we walk in this dirty world, and suffer from the evil that is still present in us (Rom 7), our soul wars against our flesh. Gal 5 tells us if we walk in the Spirit we won’t fulfill the lusts of the flesh, so obviously we know there are times we don’t — all of us. Keep getting back up and into His Word, don’t go by feelings, go by His promise since He is not a man that He can lie. If you have believed upon Jesus and Him crucified for your sins (who He is, and what He has done), you are His. He will help, and don’t worry about those ‘great encounters’ with God, I believe we put too much stock into those because of all the stories out there.
Ask the Lord to encourage you today in His Word, (I’ll pray with you for that) read, look up the cross references and read them in context to see if they are applicable to what you are reading or just a word usage, just talk to Him during that time. May the Lord bless your understanding and just trust Him to grow you as you just do the needful thing 🙂
In Christ, Holly
38 Now it came to pass, as they went, that he entered into a certain village: and a certain woman named Martha received him into her house.
39 And she had a sister called Mary, which also sat at Jesus’ feet, and heard his word (two things).
40 But Martha was cumbered about much serving, and came to him, and said, Lord, dost thou not care that my sister hath left me to serve alone? bid her therefore that she help me.
41 And Jesus answered and said unto her, Martha, Martha, thou art careful and troubled about many things: 42 but one thing is needful: and Mary hath chosen that good part, which shall not be taken away from her. Luke 10:38-42
Thank you so much Holly. That was very encouraging. Also, Ralph Yankee Arnold is one of my favorite internet pastors. 🙂
Steve, please take a look at the booklet linked below – particularly page 20 on assurance.
http://www.cleargospel.org/wp-content/uploads/English-Display-Pkg-2014.pdf
Thats a great little book. I’m going to print it out and do what it says. Read it everyday for 30 days and read Galatians one chapter a day for 30 days.
Are you so daring to say that Christ or even the new testament doesn’t command you to repent!
Jesus Himeslf after many of His miracles COMMANDS “…go and sin no more…”, Paul asks: “Should we sin that grace should abound?”
Me (sarcastic): Well Paul, i don’t know. The people above me may say that it doesn’t matter, that is not a commandment for me to keep
Paul: “GOD FORBID!”
I think that Scripture is clear on the matter that a redeemed and purchased people are to be a righteous one: living in the like righteousness of the Messiah.
Joseph, I appreciate you coming to comment and pray that you might actually consider we have not ever said someone should not repent, we are wanting people to understand the true meaning of repentance which is not ‘turn from sin’.
Is turning from sin a good thing, a righteous work to do? Of course it is, and believers should. We should not sin that grace would abound, but it is not by works of righteousness that we have been saved (Titus 3:4-7) and we cannot add them to salvation (Eph 2:8-9), the gift is free (Rom 5:15-21; 6:21). We are redeemed and purchased by His precious blood. We were washed clean in it (Rev 1:5), but please consider the repentance articles here by Ronald Shea, you might get a better grasp of the true meaning. Here is part 1 if you’d like to take a look. In Jesus Christ eternally 🙂 Holly
Repentance and Salvation by Ron Shea
hI RAY’S FALSE GOSPEL may work for someone who isn’t heavy in addictions or sinful lifestyles but it ALMOST KILLED ME AND I HAVE TWO SLITS UP BOTH WRISTS WITH STICHES TO PROVE IT. I was an accomplished movie producer for many years in Hollywood and was a Heroin addict, unable to REPENT OF MY OWN SINS TO BE SAVED AND GAVE UP HOPE..Luckily, God saved me and I now know the true gospel. I have been saved a long time now and teach what scripture really means and what the clear simple gospel is. HIS subtle heresy is way more damaging than ppl realize…its self righteous garbage. I’ve heard him confuse young SAVED ppl that just haven’t started their walk with the Lord or haven’t had guidance or were just babes in Christ and make them afraid Jesus didn’t save them. Its a damnable heresy and I’m constantly speaking against it. Changing repent to repent “of sins” has added works to the grace, thereby cancelling grace…then they call the true ppl of God those who just have “easy believism” I’m disgusted and have a channel RENEE ROLAND that tells the clear gospel and explains what they verses Lordship proponants twist to thier “own destruction” Please keep sharing the clear simplicity that is in Christ. God bless you, Renee Roland
Renee, thank you for commenting here, so glad to hear the truth has set you free. I have heard some similar stories of shipwrecked lives because of these men like Ray Comfort(less) who spread a canker not only through the body but hinder non believers from entering the kingdom of heaven. It is a false gospel spread by those who transform themselves into ministers of righteousness. Ray Comfort has not turned from his sin enough to please God, for we know he has told at least one line, and that disqualifies him (Rev 21:27). He is unfortunately a false prophet whose fruits are his heretical doctrine of wonderful works as justification. Unless he repents (changes his mind/thinking) and believes the one and only true gospel of Jesus Christ and HIM crucified alone, Ray is in for an awful awakening, I pray before the day he dies.
God bless you too.
Renee, I am so thrilled and thankful to hear your testimony of deliverance from Ray Comfort’s worthless religion to the priceless gospel of Jesus Christ.
Thank you for posting it here.
Hi Renee,
I’m so pleased you survived your pain and confusion and are here to share your story with us.
I also was in deep misery for many years because of false gospels like the “other gospel, which is no gospel” peddled by Ray (dis)Comfort. In face, it was investigating the likes of him and Francis Chan that lead me to another blog that in turn lead me to Holly’s blog.
You said, “It’s a damnable heresy and I’m constantly speaking against it.”
Amen. I do the same.
God bless you in your walk and witness.
I cant believe Ray Comfort is so pompous as to have written an interpretation of the holy scriptures. The King James bible is perfectly sufficient for anyone. I dont find Ray DIScomfort humbled or likable in any way, shape or form. I find him egotistical and arrogant. In all of the videos i have watched of him talking with folks on the street i have not seen ONE where he is convinced the person he is talking to is saved. I have seen him talk to a couple of people that to me did understand the gospel perfectly and seemed to be saved but all he kept saying was “are you living in holiness….are you living in holiness???” What he means to say is ” I AM living in holiness and you arent so there!!!!!!”. He’s not humble in the slightest. Believe me though…..i would love to see him get saved and start preaching the correct gospel to the people he talks to on the street. I think he would be very effective if he knew the gospel.
Steve, so true. I really cannot stand to hear him talk to people, the good news is not in his dialogue, and he has not turned from sin as much as he and Joyce Meyer think they have.
Great post, Steve. Never thought about how arrogant he seems but you make a great point. And yes, we must be reminded from time to time that it’s not God’s will that any should perish, and hence Ray should be in our prayers.
Thank you so much. That means a lot.
You bet, Steve. Your post made my day.
Instead, most lordship salvationists have confused “becoming a christian” with “being a christian”. “Becoming a Christian” and “being a Christian” are two different things. “Becoming a Christian” is an instant process, when a sinner repents and places his trust to Jesus Christ, he is immediately born again and become a Christian, which is a simple thing. However, “being a christian” is a life-long process that can be more difficult, it is the process of a christian to follow the Lord, which includes turning away from sins, obeying god’s commandment, separation from the world, or even facing persecution etc. It can be a difficult process so Jesus told his followers to count the price. One cannot “be a Christian” before “becoming a Christian” first. The deadly error of Lordship Salvationists is that they require sinners to fulfill the requirement of “being a Christian” as a requirement of “becoming a christian” and it results in a work salvation
I agree, thank you for your comment. Too many mix up receiving the free gift of eternal life with walking worthily or becoming a disciple. Thank you for visiting and commenting, hope to see you again. God bless you.
Totally AGREE DN689!!
I agree. Well said, I think this is where Ray had me scratching my head.
Reblogged this on Redeemingmoments and commented:
Still as popular as ever (Lk 6:26), Ray Comfort calls his company ‘Living Waters’, but is it?
NOPE…NO LIFE in Ray’s Living waters…only condemnation…which obviously he has left those verses out …cause there is NO CONDEMNATION to those who are IN Christ Jesus…for those that BELIEVE!! I don’t understand why they make it soooooo hard, when Jesus made THE WAY sooooooo easy!! THROUGH HIM we are saved!!
Great comment, Kimberrly! Thanks for stopping by.
You’re welcome fry ?
The verse in Romans 8:1 has not been quoted accurately here. The verse from the Textus Receptus is:
Romans 8:1 There is therefore now no condemnation to them which are in Christ Jesus, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit.
So we can see clearly that good fruit MUST come from the good tree.
I’m sorry Ken, I would have to disagree with you on some points.
I believe Romans 8:1 is speaking about walking in the Spirit vs. walking in the lusts of the flesh. Although there would be a difference of opinions on the which manuscripts (another discussion), for sake of discussion some say (it’s true) only some manuscripts added ‘who walk not according to the flesh (but according to the Spirit’).
Either way, it doesn’t matter with doctrine. Might be whether or not you see it as justification spoken of here, or believers being delivered from sin in their lives by the way they walk. In light of the previous chapter, I not believe it speaks to justification. But this more likely speaks to believers who need to be ‘walking in the Spirit’ vs. walking after the lusts of the flesh if they don’t want to be living feeling condemned.
This I say then, Walk in the Spirit, and ye shall not fulfil the lust of the flesh. Gal 5:16
There is no eternal condemnation for believers:
Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that heareth my word, and believeth on him that sent me, hath everlasting life, and shall not come into condemnation; but is passed from death unto life. John 5:24
And this passage shows we can be barren and unfruitful if we do not do what we are implored to do.
And beside this, giving all diligence, add to your faith virtue; and to virtue knowledge; 6 and to knowledge temperance; and to temperance patience; and to patience godliness; 7 and to godliness brotherly kindness; and to brotherly kindness charity. 8 For if these things be in you, and abound, they make you that ye shall neither be barren nor unfruitful in the knowledge of our Lord Jesus Christ. 9 But he that lacketh these things is blind, and cannot see afar off, and hath forgotten that he was purged from his old sins. 2 Pet 1:5-9
Believers can indeed feel condemned. Eternally because we have believed, we are not condemned.
Addressing the good fruit/tree comment. I’d have to challenge you on this. Ken, you are speaking of Matthew 7, and starting in vs. 13, Christ is showing He is that narrow way. Not the law which they could not keep, but He is the Rock. No amount of their good works are good enough, in fact even a lustful thought is adultery. But what do these false prophets do?
They have good works. Wonderful works in fact that Jesus never questions. He calls them workers of iniquity. So what is their fruit?
If they outwardly look like sheep and they are doing wonderful works, WHAT is their fruit?
They try to justify themselves by their ‘wonderful works’, this is what makes them ‘workers of iniquity’ because they have not submitted to HIS righteousness, but are STILL seeking to establish their own.
How long shall they utter and speak hard things? and all the workers of iniquity >> BOAST themselves? Ps 94:4
For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God: not of works, lest any man should BOAST. Eph 2:8-9
Many will say to me in that day, Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in thy name? and in thy name have cast out devils? and in thy name done many wonderful works? And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity. Matt 7:22-23
What was the will of the Father (look up John 6:39-40). They would not do it, they were STILL seeking to establish their OWN righteousness by boasting in their OWN works. What about you? Are you trusting in His final work?
For they being ignorant of God’s righteousness, and going about to establish their own righteousness, have not submitted themselves unto the righteousness of God. For Christ is the end of the law for righteousness to every one that believeth. Romans 10:3-4
Hi Fryingpan9, good to see you again too! 🙂
Hey, I’m sorry I missed your birthday. Here you were commenting on your birthday <3 We're in the final push of getting the remodeling done on Jason's place so we can get it sold. Love you in Him <3 Hope you had a special day.
Thank you so much for this article. I agree that Ray Comfort does not preach the right Gospel. Ray also makes statements such as “if you are not worried about your neighbors salvation then I am worried about yours”. Who do you see saying something like this during Jesus time? A Pharisee or the sinner who asked for mercy. Why would Ray go there? That kind of statement certainly would not cause an unbeliever to repent and it would only serve to cause doubt in a believer not yet mature in their faith.
Brady – thank you for commenting, I have listened to many of Comfort’s similar comfortless statements. Really they are accusatory and I believe only come from one place.
Thank you for asking the question, “Who do you see saying something like this during Jesus time? A Pharisee or the sinner who asked for mercy.”
I have always said to people, look, this is the way the Pharisees accused others. They were the ones who were thanking God they were not like the other sinners, or attributing the miracles of Jesus to Satan or saying He had a devil.
I have always maintained that these are mini-accusers of the brethren who if saved themselves, are causing little ones to stumble. Furthermore it will keep the lost lost…
Completely agree with you! God bless, and thanks for your comment.
Thank you for your response Holly. I want to encourage you. You are exposing the right people. Ray Comfort and Bill Johnson do not teach the real Jesus according to scripture. I also believe that scripture makes it very clear that a sure sign of a believer walking in the spirit will be their humble attitude (“3 Do nothing out of selfish ambition or vain conceit. Rather, in humility value others above yourselves, 4 not looking to your own interests but each of you to the interests of the others.” – Phil 2:3-4). I attended the Bill Johnson Show in Austin, Tx several years ago. It was very entertaining to say the least. However that being said, I pray that God would search my heart and expose the corruptiveness that maybe in me. – because I am a sinner. I don’t believe there is anything proudful about exposing leaders who are preaching a different Jesus. But, I must always be on guard and ask God if I am judging their hearts or just bringing the truth out into the light – “for mercy is greater than judgement”. Thank you for all that you do to bring truth out into the light.
Brady,
I agree on having the right attitude, and doing things for the right reason, as the Scriptures tell us. May He humble us if we’re not.
I’ve been there (fooled by unclear gospels) and so we want to help people out of this by showing them clear Scriptures and letting the Word speak as much as we can.
I don’t like doing it truthfully, it is hard, it is painful (in people’s responses at times), it is time consuming, and spiritually it can be taxing. But a long time ago I told the Lord if He wanted me to, I would speak, if He would help me and show me through His Word.
I keep praying (like you are) that He would search my heart (Ps 139), it’s still flesh so I know it needs it. I feel for these teachers, and yet I admit I feel more for those they are misleading. But I know He tells us to have compassion when we’re trying to pull some from the fire, making a difference/distinction. I think on the way we’re supposed to speak (with it being seasoned with grace and salt) and using wisdom. To have sound speech that cannot be condemned, now that’s hard. Because when they condemn me, I don’t know if I came across a certain way, or if I could have worded it better, etc., so I just keep praying that He’ll refine me, chasten me in His Word in the areas I need to do better in. I too am a sinner, although He’s see me white as snow.
God bless you and thank you for your encouragement, it’s much appreciated.
Billy Graham on his website, January 21, 2015, answering a question about salvation says, “God is willing to forgive every sin we’ve ever committed, if we’ll only turn to Him in repentance and faith, and put our trust in Jesus Christ for our salvation.” Ray Comfort in my opinion is a Christian and not a heretic but can confuse people. There are 2 characteristics we have: our person and our performance. As a Christian, my person in God’s eyes are Holy, without blemish and free from accusation. (Colossians 1:22). Our performance, in the words of Paul, are “filthy rags”. Ray does need to listen more (he interrupts a lot) and not assume everyone is lost because he leads us down the Law trail. Once we accept Christ, we still sin BUT it is the habitual sin (continuing to lie, steal etc. without remorse) that shows that a person may not be saved.
Cody, thanks so much for stopping in to comment. I don’t know about Ray one way or another, I can’t make that call ever, and I don’t think any of us can. When someone is preaching a false gospel of ‘turn from all your sins’ or ‘stop sinning’ in order to be saved, I am very concerned for them. But I can’t do much more than pray he might see the truth, and then of course mark and avoid him as the Scriptures tell us in Rom 16.
As far as ‘habitual’ sin, well that’s what a lot of translations say, but that’s not what the Word says in the original it says ‘DO’ or ‘commit’ and that means one time.
See if this helps clarify it for you. The only thing that might show that a person may not be saved is one that has never believed the gospel. Only they and the Lord know. But if they’re preaching an accursed gospel (Gal 1:6-9)– one with works added, then we can be sure they’re in trouble. God bless your week.
https://youtu.be/FnIH_UTMrys
Well said Holly!
Wow!!! I would love to see your reaction if you were before John the Baptist or if you were in the temple when Jesus over the turned the tables and took out his whip in His fathers temple. Maybe you would say that was harsh! Or how about in Numbers when the Lord swallowed up 250 family members including children. What would you say then? Or wait a minute, what about Job, God allowing Satan to touch his belongings and take his children.
I agree there is a time of boldness and a time for compassion but you need the Holy Spirit operating in you. Jesus told the adulteress women to sin no more. He told her to turn from her or stop living in sin. Christians or born again believes are not sinners, we Are saints. Yes we will fall but God sees us as children in need of grace. I needed to hear a strong message years ago and be convicted I was on my way to hell if I continue to live in sin. I did not like it but the word and seed in my heart convicted me to repent or have a change of heart. It is conviction the work of the holly spirit that led me to make a choice. Self help gospel will not save you. Apostle Paul was convicted by the law of God which led to salvation.
I believe we should not slam Bibles over a person’s head, but the Word of God does cut!!!
Phil, thank you for visiting, I apologize that I did not see your comment until now. I’ve kind of been busy with some paperwork and other things that have kept me from here. I think you may have missed the point of the article, which is the purpose of the law is to point people to Christ, we know this. A works based gospel will not save anyone, which is basically a ‘self-help’ gospel. We should use the Word of God, and not our words when the gospel is concerned, for the gospel is the power of God unto salvation (Rom 1:16-17; 1 Cor 1:17-18). If you’d like to see my thoughts on the law, you could visit my article here: https://expreacherman.com/2014/07/06/tell-me-those-of-you-who-desire-to-be-under-the-law-do-you-not-hear-the-law/
But no one is saved by works of the law and it cannot be added to the gospel or they are accursed (Gal 1:6-10). I love the book of Job, it has special personal meanings to me, and if you’d like to know my feelings regarding whether the Lord can give or take away, you might want to read more here, on my son Adam, the loss of husband, and other things. Here is a poem I wrote once on the book of Job, basically from chapter 38 on. https://redeemingmoments.com/2012/09/17/the-conversation-taken-from-job/
Believers most certainly need the Holy Spirit living in us, but we still sin, in fact the word is ‘practice’ in the Greek and translated correctly here in the NKJV. We still sin, evil is still present within us (as Paul said here) although we are indeed saints. I would highly recommend the series by Pastor Tom Cucuzza of Northland church of understanding the two natures.
18 For I know that in me (that is, in my flesh) nothing good dwells; for to will is present with me, but how to perform what is good I do not find. 19 For the good that I will to do, I do not do; but the evil I will not to do, that I practice. 20 Now if I do what I will not to do, it is no longer I who do it, but sin that dwells in me.
21 I find then a law, that evil is present with me, the one who wills to do good. 22 For I delight in the law of God according to the inward man. 23 But I see another law in my members, warring against the law of my mind, and bringing me into captivity to the law of sin which is in my members. 24 O wretched man that I am! Who will deliver me from this body of death? 25 I thank God—through Jesus Christ our Lord! So then, with the mind I myself serve the law of God, but with the flesh the law of sin.
May the Lord show you in His Word what the clear gospel of our salvation is (1 Cor 15:3-4), not one of our own works, but of His Work. Christ and Him crucified on His cross (1 Cor 2:1-4; Col 1:13-14).
What about Mathew 4:17. What about let he who has not signed cast the first stone where at the end Jesus tells the woman your sins are forgiven, go and sin no more. Repentance is a huge deal in the bible.
Chad, I appreciate your visiting and taking time to comment. Sorry for the delay to add your comment, I don’t come here as often as I’d like.
You asked about Matthew 4:17 (repent for the Kingdom of Heaven is at hand). I think first we have to look at the word itself, what it does mean and what it does not mean. God repented more than anyone, we know it cannot mean to turn from sin or ‘sin no more’. It is a change of mind/thinking which may in fact have to do with sin. Turning from sin is a good work, a righteous thing to do (Jonah 3:9-10, Titus 3:4-8), but it is not by works of righteousness that we have done, not by works that we can boast, but it is by faith alone that we are saved.
As far as the story of the woman, ‘go and sin no more’, it is a little more of a different thing. Jesus did not say, ‘Go and sin no more in order that you might gain eternal life’. For that would be an impossible thing for any of us, and we’d be lying if we said we did not sin.
Jesus was addressing this specific sin, (adultery) which had almost cost her physical life. According to OT Scriptures these men should have brought both of those committing adultery, but instead, it seems a very good possibility that these Pharisees had set this woman up in order to trip up Jesus regarding the law. Why did they not bring the man?
The fact that this apparent ruse to trap Jesus so they could accuse Him did not succeed, likely enraged these murderous men even further. It is an awful thing to commit sexual immorality, He is telling her, go your way, don’t do this again, likely if she did, it would not go well for her in many ways, they would be enraged at her also.
Go and sin no more has nothing to do with eternal life. Changing our mind regarding thinking being good saves us, or a religion, or being born in a particular church or being a child of Abraham (physically), or that gods were made by hands of stone or metals, none of these things would save. Repent, change your thinking and believe on the one and only way, Jesus Christ (John 14:6) and Him crucified for our sins, buried and risen again as we believers will be too by His power one day.
Repentance is not mentioned once in the book of John, the only book written as a strictly evangelical book, see the purpose statement in John 20:31. Repenting or changing our mind is implicit in believing upon Him for eternal life, but changing our mind after salvation is as we are instructed by the Word and we begin to grow in His grace. We begin to get transformed as we cooperate and renew our minds in His Word, as we are washed in it (Jn 17:17; Eph 5:26; Ps 119:9-11).
God bless you to be a noble Berean (Acts 17:11) and go look up these Scriptures and see if these things are so. In Christ.
https://expreacherman.com/2016/09/17/lordship-salvation-what-about-john-316/
That exposition is beautiful, johninnc!
I agree fryingpan9, His Word is treasure to be loved… (Ps 119:140,162).
Thanks John, an excellent article!
Your understanding of the reformed doctrine of salvation seems to be skewed and Comfort is not reformed in his doctrine of salvation. He quotes the saved by grace through faith mantra, but fall very short in its understanding. I also so find many reformed teachers that reject Comforts message of salvation. The reformed doctrine does not teach a salvation by repentance for sin. Salvation (justification) come before sanctification. The only true repentance is from unbelief in Christ, which is granted to us. This is the teachings of the reformed doctrine of salvation
R. Smith, thank you for coming by to comment.
There are many levels of beliefs within the ‘reformed’ way of salvation. I realize Ray Comfort may not fit it with someone’s idea of the ‘norm’. Some that identify as reformed are ‘leaky dispensationalists’ as John MacArthur claims to be. Or we have those charismatic reformed like systematic theology author Wayne Grudem. What about the ‘trap door in heaven’ reformed like Tim Keller? Then there are the so called ‘seven pointers’ like John Piper, or even some that claim 1000 points, and so on… There are plenty of ‘turn from sin’ or ‘stop sinning’ that identify with TULIP, such as God pre-chosing a few to heaven (people such as Ray Comfort).
I do realize not all reformed see eye to eye on many of their doctrines and identify with different confessions, but all in all, a common bottom line is stating they believe it is by ‘grace alone’ while contradicting themselves in the next breath. Believing ‘grace’ means pre-regeneration unto salvation, or a.k.a., ‘faith is the gift’ God bestows upon the pre-chosen candidate. Adding the misnomer that if they were ‘truly’ saved, then they will prove it by their works (Perseverance of the Saints).
Regardless of whether you may feel my understanding is skewed, I believe rather the doctrine is skewed — helter skelter, and not at all Biblical. So I reject it and I warn. I really do appreciate your thoughts, but I have to stand where I am on Comfort’s errant doctrine unless I saw differently from what He has said. John MacArthur and Ray both have similar motifs on the ‘turn from sin’ doctrine in order to be saved (lawkeeping).
For the gifts and calling of God are without repentance Romans 11:29 Kjv. To all out there, Please use a kjv bible when studying.The gospel message for us today is found in Cor. 15:1-4. Now to him that is of power to establish you according to my gospel, and the preaching of Jesus Christ, according to the revelation of the mystery, which was kept SECRET since the world began. Romans 16:25
Thanks for commenting Scott, We removed a couple of your comments because of this:
1) We like the KJV, but we are not KJVOnlyist. Many are KJV preferred here but we stray from the other.
2) We are not hyperdispensationalists although we are dispensationalists, who believe the revelation was made known personally to Paul by Jesus, it was also made known to all the apostles. No one was ever justified by the law, Jew or Greek (Gal 2:16; 3:11).
We see here the mystery was made known personally to Paul AND all the other gospels. Paul’s mission was ‘mainly’ to the Gentile, although Acts 9 says he was chosen as a vessel to bring the gospel to Gentiles, Jews and Kings. The mystery was that Gentiles would be fellow heirs. Read Eph 3.
…how that by revelation he made known unto me the mystery; (as I wrote afore in few words, 4 whereby, when ye read, ye may understand my knowledge in the mystery of Christ) 5 which in other ages was not made known unto the sons of men, as it is now revealed unto his holy apostles and prophets by the Spirit; 6 that the Gentiles should be fellowheirs, and of the same body, and partakers of his promise in Christ by the gospel: 7 whereof I was made a minister, according to the gift of the grace of God given unto me by the effectual working of his power. 8 Unto me, who am less than the least of all saints, is this grace given, that I should preach among the Gentiles the unsearchable riches of Christ; 9 and to make all men see what is the fellowship of the mystery, which from the beginning of the world hath been hid in God, who created all things by Jesus Christ:
Thank you for writing this needful article. Ray Comfort is a false teacher, who is leading thousands of people into Hell. Mr. Comfort never leads anybody to the Lord while street preaching. He asks them if they’ll go home and think about what he just said. Since he requires living a lifestyle of turning away from sins to be saved (which is works), no one can do this on the spot. Ray Comfort perverts the Gospel, turning getting saved into a lifelong process, instead of simply receiving God’s free gift of eternal life by faith alone in the Gospel (Romans 4:1-6; Galatians 3:1-11). God bless you Holly, great job!
Dear Redeemed 🙂 Love what that word represents. Yes, Ray Comfort is false, and sadly people see him as a charming and sincere man vs. a wolf in sheep’s clothing.
I hope more and more come to a simple faith in who Jesus is and what He accomplished for them, instead of listening to men like Comfort-less who corrupt minds from the simplicity that is in Christ (2 Cor 11:3-4). God bless you too.
Time is so short. I wonder why Ray Comfort’s ‘gospel’ is one that Hollywood and Malibu wants to hear? It appeals to the flesh. YOU can be in charge of your destiny by what YOU do (according to their false teaching of turn from all your sins, forsake your sins). It’s like a 12 step program, you might get cleaned up, but it will not save you eternally.
I 100% reject the notion that a Christian has free will and must turn from sin or see sin for how sinful it is in order to turn from it.
…Therefore, the “decision” that an individual makes to place their faith in Christ is not their decision at all. Rather, they are 100% being given faith by His Holy Spirit and being transformed 100% by HIM, based on the fact that they were chosen by HIM to receive His mercy.
…Scripture is ABUNDANTLY clear that God chose who He would save and who He wouldn’t (those whose hearts He would harden). Your denial of that is simply you wanting to play God, and any attempt to use other Scripture to deny this truth is taking that other Scripture out of the context of the entirety of Scripture.
…While it is God’s DESIRE that none should perish, that’s obviously not the way He planned for things to go down.
…You said …
“The gospel is placing your faith in Jesus Christ alone for what He did for you on the cross …”
More accurate would be to say …
“The gospel is GOD placing your faith in Jesus Christ alone for what He did for you on the cross …”
Your statement implies performance….
Kirk, so that any readers are clear, I disagree with your lengthy Calvinist blog of a comment which I reduced to a few of your comments unchanged.
Yes, it is our decision to make, based on truth that we hear. Jesus asks us to have faith, but I suspect I’d be wasting my breath, with you, faith comes by hearing His Word, not by being made to believe. So for any reading this Calvinist’s idea that God ‘gift is faith’ vs. eternal life, I would suggest this article. Is Faith the Gift?
Scripture is not ‘abundantly clear’ that God chose to harden some hearts based on His choosing them to heaven or hell. This is what happens when people take proof texts and do not understand Jacob and Esau as a nation, and being chosen to service being chosen to salvation. But again, sadly, this often falls on deaf ears.
Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that heareth my word, and believeth on him that sent me, hath everlasting life, and shall not come into condemnation; but is passed from death unto life. John 5:24
I do pray you might come to the right understanding, because you cannot know under your system whether or not you are one of the ‘chosen to salvation’ or one under evanescent grace. Or have you discovered that part of your theological construct yet?
Keep on writing, great job!
People seem to love the method, of course, being on t.v., and being interviewed with the microphone seems to be a novelty with many. Oh, there are some that will shout, like the red-haired woman who declared herself her own god. But most seem very happy to receive his questions which corral them into agreement with him, but has the Holy Spirit convicted them of the truth? Of sin (because they believe not on Him) – seems like that would be a most important sin to cover. Of righteousness and judgment? (John 16). The ones that preach about ‘false converts’ I am afraid are making their own ‘false converts’….
Thx for those links Holly. 😀
“The ones that preach about ‘false converts’ I am afraid are making their own ‘false converts’….”
Irony:
JM holds a conference to warn people about false gospels/movements.
The devil must think himself super clever.
Yes, if you warn about false converts, you make people doubt their salvation, and doubt the gospel, don’t really know what it is.
If you preach about “easy believism” then you get people thinking becoming saved is hard (as MacArthur preaches), and you wonder if you did everything you should do to be saved.
If you warn people that a true gospel is false, then you’ve subtly deceived people and corrupted minds from the simplicity that is in Christ.
This is the trouble Paul warned of, do not think of men beyond what is written….1 Cor. 4:6
Yes, the wolves out each other, and that’s how they commend themselves.