Rapture Timing – Olivet Discourse (Pt. 4)

This series is written as a defense of the Pre-Tribulation Rapture Timing

This is a more in-depth study of the Rapture series defending Pre-Tribulation Timing. Please check back as I will add Scripture references over time. This section will specifically be going over the Olivet Discourse and why Pre-Tribulation is firm that it speaks to Israel and those who will be left on the earth. We will be discussing some of the objects mainly of PreWrath Opponents. Scripture links are provided throughout, SO PLEASE be noble (Acts 17:11) and look them up, so you can feel solidly grounded in what you believe. 

(Previous Rapture Timing Articles: Part 1, Part 2, Part 3)

The Olivet Discourse and Israel

This is a very crucial teaching that many people disagree on. Definition-wise, the Olivet discourse is simply one of the last teachings Jesus gave on the Mount of Olives (seen in Matt 24-25; Mark 13 and Luke 21). This was right after He pronounced His Woes upon the leadership of Israel (Matt 23) and told them their house was left to them desolate (because they rejected Him). Unbelieving Israel had rejected Him, so Jesus is speaking about them and the time at the end that they will finally receive Him in the future.

The Purpose of the Tribulation

Jesus cut off Israel (the natural branches) for their unbelief (Romans 11:20) and said they would not see Him until they would say, “BLESSED IS HE WHO COMES IN THE NAME OF THE LORD!” (Matt 23:38-39). His disciples then questioned Jesus about what He had just said to the leadership of Israel. They asked Him when the temple was going to fall, what was the sign of His coming and the end of the age.

The church age is not addressed here at all. I don’t believe the Discourse is spoken to, nor about the church. The rebels of Israel (unbelievers), the land and future punishment for their transgression are in view during this period. God’s holy name will be sanctified (Ez 36:22-32). He will purge the rebels from them and bring out a remnant. The purpose is also to fulfill His promises to Israel. He has promised, He will perform.

Keep in mind, the Olivet Discourse parallels many of the Scriptures in Revelation 6 on. The question is whether or not these judgments Jesus gives are God’s wrath or not. So we’ll examine whether or not the birth pangs belong in the time of wrath. We’ll address whether or not Daniel’s last seven-year prophecy is all wrath.

Although the church is mentioned multiple times in Revelation chapters 1-3, not even ONCE is the word church used again in the seven years of tribulation. Suddenly the word changes to saint. That is a strong argument to consider. The word church is used again, after the tribulation, in the narrative in chapter 22. The wife or bride is seen in Revelation 19 getting ready to follow Him down to earth. Certainly the word would have been used even once or twice in 6-18 if the church were involved.

The Mount of Olives

There is much significance with Israel regarding the Mount of Olives. In Luke 21:37, we see Jesus teaching in the temple, but every night sleeping on the Mount of Olives.

The Mountain is the place where Jesus ascended into heaven. It’s also the place He wept over Jerusalem and the place He’ll come back for them (His remnant, the elect). It is where King David also went up weeping when His son Absalom betrayed him and sought his death (2 Sam 15).

Gethsemane is at the foot of the Mount of Olives and is where Jesus sweated blood droplets when He prayed in agony over what was to come. It is also where Judas betrayed Jesus with a kiss. Gethsemane means ‘oil press’. Considering the travail of Jesus there, it seems appropriate.

The Mount of Olives is where the glory of the Lord left the Temple and the city and hovered above the mountain (Ez 10:18-19; Ez 11:23). It is where the glory of the Lord will return. After the destruction of the Temple, Jews celebrated the festival of Sukkot (Feast of Tabernacles on the Mount of Olives. It is also known as the Festival of ingathering or the end of the harvest. This will also be the final feast fulfilled. It is where Jesus will set His feet down when He comes to the earth (Zech 14:4), and the Mount of Olives will split in two. And Olivet is where He will gather His elect (the remnant of Israel) from the four winds (or corners) of the earth (Is 11:11-12; Matt 24:31; Isaiah 27:12-13).

Why is the Olivet Discourse to Israel vs. the Church

Following we see a list of things related to His disciples in this discussion. Consider these and see what you think. Keep in mind they are not necessarily in the same order in the three parallel passages (Matt 24, Mark 13, Luke 21), so this is a list of things we see in the parallel chapters.

• Israel & Judah’s past and yet Future Temple (Matt 24:2,15; Mark 13:2,14; Luke 21:6; 1 Kings 9:7, Micah 3:12; Luke 19:44).

• Antichrists – Being misled by false Messiahs (Matt 24:4-5; Mark 13:6; Luke 21:8; Rev 6:1-2). Israel is still looking for their Messiah, the church is not.

• Birth pangs or beginning of sorrows– also seen as ‘travail’ in OT Scriptures and identified as God’s judgment, wrath or anger. Birth pangs and travail also often related as the Day of the Lord (see Isaiah 13:6-8 as one example). Described as wars, nations and kingdoms against each other, famines, pestilences, earthquakes. Here are a few more OT passages on Birth Pangs – (Isaiah 13, Isaiah 24, Isaiah 66:5-16; Micah 4-5; Jer. 30:4-7). Jeremiah includes birth pains/pangs with ‘that day’.

For yourselves know perfectly that the day of the Lord so cometh as a thief in the night. For when they shall say, Peace and safety; then sudden destruction cometh upon them, as travail upon a woman with child; and they shall not escape. 1 Thess 5:2-3

(Please note the passage above includes birth pangs and is the Day of the Lord which is wrath). Pre-wrath says the birth pangs/pains are NOT included in the Tribulation, that it is NOT God’s Wrath (wrong). A woman will know when ‘that day’ has come when she begins labor (the Day of the Lord).

Pre-wrath say that the first six seals are not wrath (or the Day of the Lord) which is why they don’t include the birth pangs which the OT definitely identifies as wrath. Look at just some of these OT passages that deal with both past events and future. You will see over and over, death by sword, famine, pestilence, beast, other nations (wars) and earthquakes. All seem to me to definitely be God’s wrath and identical punishments seen in the seals of Revelation 6, and in the birth pangs seen in the Olivet Discourses (Matt 24, Mark 13, Luke 21).

See also these OT passages. Jer 15:1-6; Ezek 14:21-22; Lev 26:16-28; 2 Chronicles 6:28-30; Is 51:17-20; Jer 14:11-12; 1 Kings 8:33-40; Jer 19:6-8; Jer 24:10; Jer 27:8,13; Jer 29:17-18; Jer 32:36; Jer 34:17; Jer 38:2; Jer 42:16-18 Jer 44:12-13; Ez 5:11-13; Ez 6:11-12; Ez 12:16; Ez 14:17; Ez 33:23-28

• They will deliver YOU to Tribulation – We see a partial fulfillment in what the disciple’s went through. We know the ‘they’ is wicked men. But we also know Israel at the end are delivered to Tribulation and taken captive when their city is surrounded by the nations and the Antichrist sets himself up as God in the temple (as prophesied).

• Hated or persecuted for ‘His Name’s Sake’ – (Matt 24:9; Mark 13:13; Luke 21:12). Martyrdom can and will effect more than just Israel in the Tribulation, But this Discourse I speaks to Israel. I do believe we see a partial fulfillment in His disciple’s upcoming persecution and deaths (all but John). Some equate this phrase to the church, but throughout the OT, we see what God will do for ‘His Name’s sake’ because THEY (Israel) have profaned His name (Is. 66:5-ff; Ez. 20; Ez. 36:16-ff (see His wrath), Ez. 39 etc.). From the beginning, the other nations have always hated Israel, they will be made a cup of trembling for those nations (Zech 12), and those nations will persecute them, and Satan will persecute Israel (Rev 12:13), and come against them as part of the judgments upon Israel in the last seven years. Just as God used Babylon to purge Israel and bring the remnant to Him.

• Many False Prophets – The oracles of God have always been committed to Israel. Israel is still looking for prophets to speak to them, as they have not accepted the New Testament as God’s Word.

What advantage then hath the Jew? Or what profit is there of circumcision? Much every way: chiefly, because that unto them were committed the oracles of God. Rom 3:1-2

* He who endures to the end will be saved – (The ‘saved’ (sozo) here is a physical deliverance of Israel — the remnant, from out of the Tribulation. They will be able to procreate in the Millinneum (Zech 13:8-9).

• Abomination of Desolation (in the temple) – Israel is already familiar with this term and saw it in their last temple with Antiochus Epiphanes desecrating the temple. And Titus would again do this same thing in 70 A.D. and there is yet a future fulfillment left in the end for the third temple.

• Spoken of by DANIEL the prophet – Let’s be very clear, the entire 7 years left of Daniel’s prophecy is to be fulfilled upon Israel for their transgression (see Daniel 9:24-27).

• Those in Judaea are told to flee (Matt 24:16; Mark 13:14; Luke 21:20-21)

• The mountains of Jerusalem are also mentioned by the Luke 21 account –This is spoken to two specific places in Israel.

• For these be the days of vengeance, that all things which are written may be fulfilled (Luke 21 only). This references Isaiah 61:2b which says, the day of vengeance of our God; to comfort all that mourn; (the part of the prophecy that Jesus did not say was fulfilled – see Luke 4:17-21). Verse 3 identifies those who will be comforted as those who are in Zion.

• Those in the midst of the city (Jerusalem) – The church has no city on earth, only Israel is promised this city and mountains as the ones who inherit it:

THE CHURCH: For here have we no continuing city, but we seek one to come. Heb 13:14

ISRAEL: And I will bring forth a seed out of Jacob, and out of Judah an inheritor of my mountains:
and mine elect shall inherit it,
and my servants shall dwell there.
And Sharon shall be a fold of flocks,
and the valley of Achor a place for the herds to lie down in,
for my people that have sought me. Isaiah 65:9-10

• Pray who doesn’t have to flee on the Sabbath? – Only Israel is given the Sabbath. Israel still keeps the Sabbath. This does not speak to the Church. (The Church doesn’t worship on Shabbat, but instead the first day of the week: Now on the first day of the week, >>when the disciples came together to break bread<< (Acts 20:7a) – see also 1 Cor 16:2; Col 2:16-17. The Sabbath is a shadow, but Christ is the Substance of it for us).

• Pray you don’t flee in the winter – Israel’s has cold winters, and places like Petra and the mountains get below freezing in winter. Of course other places get cold in winter, but other places are not referenced (except for the nations that will come against Israel). Judaea and Jerusalem are who Christ is addressing here (spoken by Him in the Olivet passages)

• False Prophets and False Christs are again mentioned – The church should not be looking for any more prophets or Christ to be in any rooms.

• Who is the elect? Here we see another passage. I believe ‘the elect’ that is spoken to here is Israel as the church has not been identified as the elect yet.

For Jacob my servant’s sake, and Israel mine elect,
I have even called thee by thy name:
I have surnamed thee, though thou hast not known me. Isaiah 45:4

• Behold, He is in the inner rooms – I believe this addresses the Future Temple. The inner room was the ‘most Holy Place’ of the Temple. Solomon built the inner room for the Ark to go in. This is likely where the antichrist is going to desecrate the temple and set himself up as God.

• For as the lightning cometh out of the east, and shineth even unto the west; so shall also the coming of the Son of man be – Even in His appearing, He is doing something very similar to what God did when He came to visit Moses with Thunder and Lightning and flashing and a thick cloud and sound of a trumpet. God warned them of the Prophet coming that they must listen to or He would require it of them (Deut 18:18-19). Jesus came as the Lamb and now as the Lion of the tribe of Judah.

• Wherever the corpse is, there the vultures will gather. I believe even this references OT Scriptures regarding wrath upon Israel and the nations that come against her (Ezekiel 39:17-24).

• Wrath upon this people: (Specific to Israel) For there shall be great distress in the land, and wrath upon this people. And they shall fall by the edge of the sword, and shall be led away captive into all nations: I believe it is clear the Land is Israel and the wrath is upon the Jews, as this is prophesied what will happen to them. 

Seventy weeks are determined For your people and for your holy city, (Daniel 9:24a) – Daniel’s people is Israel, Daniel’s Holy City is Jerusalem, and Jesus said these were the things spoken of by Daniel the Prophet

And power was given to them over a fourth of the earth, to kill with sword, with hunger, with death, and by the beasts of the earth. Revelation 6:8c (fourth Seal)

• Jerusalem shall be trodden down of the Gentiles, until the times of the Gentiles be fulfilled. This is not the same as the fullness of the Gentiles (Rom 11:25-26) which started and will end with the church. God then turns His attention to Israel to fulfill the last seven years of retribution for their sin, purging and purifying the remnant.

• Cosmic Signs – The sun shall be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken – Because these are the final (and only) cosmic signs that we see mentioned in Matt 24:29, Pre-trib does not see this the same way as Pre-wrath. Pre-wrath identifies this portion in Matthew as being the same exact as the sixth seal (Rev 6:12-17). Trouble with that understanding is that there are more cosmic signs again and again in Revelation which come after the sixth seal. Yet if they were the same event Matthew 24:29 says ‘immediately AFTER the TRIBULATION of those days Christ appears. Cannot be since we know that in Revelation we are still looking at other future judgments and other cosmic signs. So I don’t believe the sixth seal can align with Matthew 24:29 for that reason. Nor can preWrath have it right as they see this appearance as the rapture and Matt 24 is clear it is His second coming at the end of the great Tribulation. We are the saints coming back with Jesus at this time of ‘immediately after’ (Matt 24:29-30; Jude 14).

This is clearly speaking to the Second Coming, not the Rapture, just as Daniel the prophet spoke

I saw in the night visions, and, behold, one like the Son of man came with the clouds of heaven, and came to the Ancient of days, and they brought him near before him.  And there was given him dominion, and glory, and a kingdom, that all people, nations, and languages, should serve him: his dominion is an everlasting dominion, which shall not pass away, and his kingdom that which shall not be destroyed.  Daniel 7:13-14

and then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.  Matt 24:30

• WATCH – (what I say to you, I say unto all, watch). This is a big one for some PreWrath believers who argue we are all to watch. Since they place the Day of the Lord at the end, therefore they say this passage somehow means that the church is present for the seven years of Tribulation (or most of them).

What I believe we see below is the parentheses in history known as the Church. Here is Jesus (the Son of Man) in His first coming (going on a far journey, leaving His house). I believe Israel are His servants and the house He promised Israel (2 Sam 7; 1 Chr 17). Israel also was His servant who had authority over everything. To them were committed the oracles of God, the adoption, the covenants, the giving of the law, the SERVICE of God, the promises, and the lineage of Christ Himself (Rom 3:1-2; Rom 9:3-5).

Israel was given the authority for His house and Service, (along with a throne and a Kingdom) and they were to be watching for the coming of the Messiah. Each year the High Priest was to examine the males who came up for the Feasts to see if the Messiah was among them. Jesus did all these miracles, and fulfilled all these prophecies, yet they attributed His miracles to Beelzebub.

Israel should be watching for His coming (I believe we see a similar reference to Israel in the parable of the virgins, and the parable of the talents in Matt 25). The church is looking for His coming too, but it is His coming to gather us together in the clouds to Him. This is the first portion of His second coming, or a part of the Day of the Lord. The church is not the virgins or bridesmaids, we are the wife. We are not the servant in these passages, but we are the sons of God. We are looking for Him to come to gather us to Him, and take us to the place He prepared for us. Not to take us immediately back down to earth as the preWrath or post-trib would have us believe.

For the Son of man is as a man taking a far journey, who left his house, and gave authority to his servants, (House and servant is Israel) and to every man his work, and commanded the porter to watch. Watch ye therefore: for ye know not when the master of the house cometh, at even, or at midnight, or at the cockcrowing, or in the morning: lest coming suddenly he find you sleeping. And what I say unto you I say unto all, Watch. Mark 13:34-37

The Next time we (the church) see Christ will be when we meet Him in the air

The church has already believed and received the Messiah. We are not looking for a Messiah since we know He has already come, but Israel is still looking. I don’t believe we need the warning not to believe a false Christ here on earth. The next time we see Christ, we know it will be to meet Him in the air. Plain and simple, we will not have a chance to be deceived. That is yet another of many reasons why I believe Israel mainly is in view, along with the unbelieving people who dwell upon the earth.

More on Birth Pangs

Israel is warned over and over in the Old Testament of Birth Pangs. This is related to the beginning of labor for a woman. It comes upon her suddenly. The end pains don’t do this. The birth doesn’t do this, but the beginning of labor does take her by surprise even though she expects it in her future.

Do the birth pangs belong in the Day of the Lord? Yes, even though those who oppose Pre-Trib don’t think so. Even in the Old Testament, a woman’s travail, birth pangs, sorrows are attributed not only to wrath, but to the day of the Lord. So then, let me ask, does a woman not already know she is in labor until the end of her labor? Does it take her by surprise? Is she watching for it by that point? I think we all know the answer to those questions. So it’s a matter of whether or not the Word means it the same way. I believe birth pangs are included in wrath and the Day of the Lord.

The Elect

In discussing the Olivet Discourse, PreWrath (Rosenthal) makes the argument that the Elect is normally only used when the church was spoken of. Therefore he says the elect in Matthew 24 is the Church. I completely disagree. I believe the Scriptures make it apparent it is Israel (notwithstanding, the church is not yet an entity).

I do not believe we see in Scripture that there is a precedent for the church to be gathered to Jerusalem. Conversely we see throughout the Old Testament an upcoming gathering of Israel TO their land. I believe in the end, those who are left, He will supernaturally bring back to their land.

So in contrast to what PreWrath and PostTrib says is the rapture, I believe the gathering of the elect (Matt 24:31 from the four corners of the earth) addresses the second gathering of Israel to her land, and to her Messiah (compare the passages below). Directly before the Olivet discourse, Jesus has just said this:

“O Jerusalem, Jerusalem, the one who kills the prophets and stones those who are sent to her! How often I wanted to gather your children together, as a hen gathers her chicks under her wings, but you were not willing! See! Your house is left to you desolate; for I say to you, you (unbelieving Israel) shall see Me no more till you say, ‘Blessed is He who comes in the name of the Lord!’ ”

Chapters and verses are not in the original manuscripts, but the previous and the latter material makes it clear that Jesus is speaking of Israel and Daniel’s future prophecy upon them, as well as a partial fulfillment coming in the destruction of their second temple.

Israel has been coming back to a portion of their land, but it is not an entire gathering of the remnant to ALL of their land. The final gathering spoken of in the Olivet Discourse may include believing Gentiles, (although I don’t believe so), but I do not think this particular gathering in Matt 24:31 has anything to do with the rapture at all. I believe the elect gathered has to do with the ingathering or final harvest of Israel to their land.

And it shall come to pass in that day, that the Lord shall set his hand again the second time to recover the remnant of his people, which shall be left, from Assyria, and from Egypt, and from Pathros, and from Cush, and from Elam, and from Shinar, and from Hamath, and from the islands of the sea. And he shall set up an ensign for the nations, and shall assemble the outcasts of Israel, and gather together the dispersed of Judah from the four corners of the earth. Is 11:11-12

“Now it shall come to pass, when all these things come upon you, the blessing and the curse which I have set before you, and you call them to mind among all the nations where the Lord your God drives you, and you return to the Lord your God and obey His voice, according to all that I command you today, you and your children, with all your heart and with all your soul, that the Lord your God will bring you back from captivity, and have compassion on you, and gather you again from all the nations where the Lord your God has scattered you. If any of you are driven out to the >>farthest parts >>under heaven, from there the Lord your God will >>gather you, and from there He will bring you. Then the Lord your God will bring you to the land which your fathers possessed, and you shall possess it. He will prosper you and multiply you more than your fathers. Deut 30:1-5

Then the sign of the Son of Man will appear in heaven, and then all the tribes of the earth will mourn, and they will see the Son of Man coming on the clouds of heaven with power and great glory. And He will send His angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they will gather together His elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other. Matt 24:30-31

A Trumpet will sound: From above regarding their regathering – see Isaiah 27:12-13

And say unto them, Thus saith the Lord GOD; Behold, I will take the children of Israel from among the heathen, whither they be gone, and will gather them on every side, and bring them into their own land: and I will make them one nation in the land upon the mountains of Israel; and one king shall be king to them all: and they shall be no more two nations, neither shall they be divided into two kingdoms any more at all: Ez 37:21-22

Fig Tree

Learn the parable of the Fig Tree…Briefly, the Fig tree is generally representative of the nation of Israel. And some see the cursing of the leadership in Matthew 23 as the cursed fig tree in Matthew 21:18-20. The axe was laid to the root, yet the root is still left. There is a season where they can expect certain things. I believe Jesus is giving them the time to look for, when they will see Him turn His attention back to Israel. 

The Goodman of the House

I believe the ‘goodman of the house’ is the nation of Israel that Christ had just spoken to. Please remember, chapters and verses are not part of the Bible originally but were added for reference later.

Behold, >>your house is left unto you desolate. Matthew 23:38-39

But know this, that if the goodman of the house had known in what watch the thief would come, he would have watched, and would not have suffered >>his house to be broken up. Matt 24:43

Again, Israel was God’s servant (Rom 3:1-2; Rom 9:3-5; Isaiah 45:4). They were promised a house, a throne and a kingdom (2 Sam 7:10-17; 1 Chr 17:9-26). These passages are CLEAR, that the house belongs to Israel FOREVER. It is NOT speaking to the church. Israel (pre-cross and unbelievers) are not identified as the bride or the church (which was not yet) but as the ‘friends of the bridegroom’ (John 3:29). It is of significance that they are the wedding party, not the bride. The church is only spoken of once in Matt 16 and that is speaking of the future entity which will commence with the baptism of the Holy Spirit into the church.

Prophecy in Daniel 7:25, 9:27, Reve 11:2-3; Rev 13:5 and others have already revealed to us the exact amount of days of Daniel’s 70th week. We have some differences of opinion of the additional days seen in Daniel 12:11-12.

We have the signing of the Peace Treaty that kicks off the beginning of the seven years. We also have the middle of the Tribulation when the AC will violate the Holy Place (the abomination of desolation), which sets off the Great Tribulation. We know how much time will follow the commencement of that day (which was cut short ahead of time – it is a ‘determined end’ – Is 10:23). It is not that suddenly the Prophecy will change and those days will become shorter than prophesied. We can know exactly the amount of days until He arrives back on earth from the signing/confirmation of the treaty, so that would not be surprising to us. But what about His coming with a shout, a voice of a trump, to gather us together to Him in the clouds?

PreWrathers misuse these words from the Olivet discourse ‘unless those days were shortened’ (referring to the second half of the 3-1/2 years of Daniel’s 70th week). They say that the PreWrath, ¾ rapture literally will shorten or cut short this prophesied time of 3-1/2 years. How can this be so? The Bible verifies exact timing in several places, so it has to be the amount of time specified. Otherwise, aren’t we changing God’s Word?

Rosenthal says (concerning the Olivet Discourses) that the disciples will be the church therefore these passages must speak to the church. Many sound scholars would disagree. The church is yet future, and I hope I was able to show you that Jesus is speaking to things that definitely reference Israel alone. In addition, we realize although He was speaking to His Jewish disciples that would become the church, He was relating Daniel’s prophecy, along with others such as Isaiah, Jeremiah, Hosea, Joel, Zephaniah, Zechariah, regarding what the remnant of Israel would face in the last seven years. It sure seems that everything is about Israel in this passage (beyond all the other reasons why), but we all need to spend time studying to determine if what we know is due to His Word or some man’s book, some tradition, or even a new theory.

Part 5 of the PreTribulation Rapture Here

Most of all, we need to be sure that we have believed upon Jesus (who He is – God, the Messiah), and His work on the cross (died for all of our sins), rose again from the dead (guaranteeing all who believe in Him will also never perish eternally). The free gift is eternal life, you need to believe only on Him, apart from any works of your own. If you would like to know more, please read here, or leave a comment.

In Christ, Holly